Better Dambusters

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G

gruad

Airman 1st Class
176
83
Jun 13, 2009
London
Better Dambusters - how when I consider the operation a tremendous success.

However it was a suicide mission with 46 out of 133 being killed I think.

Max Hastings in his book says

1. The Mobile reserve was ill considered given its casualties were highest once the defenses were alerted.

2. The attempts to bomb earthworks bombs like the Sorpe were entirely pointless (would the later Tallboy have been effective?)

So if it wasn't such a brutal raid would other stuff like 'Highball' have gone on.

All answers gratefully appreciated
 
gruad said:
Better Dambusters - how when I consider the operation a tremendous success.

However it was a suicide mission with 46 out of 133 being killed I think.

Max Hastings in his book says

1. The Mobile reserve was ill considered given its casualties were highest once the defenses were alerted.

2. The attempts to bomb earthworks bombs like the Sorpe were entirely pointless (would the later Tallboy have been effective?)

So if it wasn't such a brutal raid would other stuff like 'Highball' have gone on.

All answers gratefully appreciated
Click to expand...
Hi
The Sorpe was attacked with Tallboys on 15 October 1944, 18 Lancasters (617 sqn) with 12 bombs from 13,000 and 15,000 feet, it sprang a leek but did not fail. Here is the post attack aerial photo:
Scan_20240813 (14).png

Info from 'Bombs Gone' by MacBean and Hogben, pages 144-145.

Mike
 
MikeMeech said:
Hi
The Sorpe was attacked with Tallboys on 15 October 1944, 18 Lancasters (617 sqn) with 12 bombs from 13,000 and 15,000 feet, it sprang a leek but did not fail. Here is the post attack aerial photo:
View attachment 792975
Info from 'Bombs Gone' by MacBean and Hogben, pages 144-145.

Mike
Click to expand...
If it only sprang a leak after an attack with 12 Tallboys, I doubt using Grand Slams would be much more effective. So that basically rules out an air attack against the Sorpe being at all effective.

Dam 1:0 Busters
 
gruad said:
Better Dambusters - how when I consider the operation a tremendous success.

However it was a suicide mission with 46 out of 133 being killed I think.

Max Hastings in his book says

1. The Mobile reserve was ill considered given its casualties were highest once the defenses were alerted.

2. The attempts to bomb earthworks bombs like the Sorpe were entirely pointless (would the later Tallboy have been effective?)

So if it wasn't such a brutal raid would other stuff like 'Highball' have gone on.

All answers gratefully appreciated
Click to expand...

It's always difficult to answer such a thing because there was a war on and for us to comment on such strategy decisions comes with hindsight and context that we are often not aware of when the decision was made. Yes, the Dambusters raid was costly, but the results of breaching at least one dam can be regarded as successful. While that might seem cold and inconsiderate given the high casualties, but as mentioned, there was a war on. The ultimate aim of the Allies in WW2 was victory at all costs and for Germany to surrender unconditionally. "At all costs" means people are gonna die, sometimes needlessly, but the Allies were prepared to take any suggestions that might have assisted in bringing the war to an end or at least disrupt the enemy's capacity to continue fighting, no matter how outlandish.

Look at any scenario where military operations or campaigns were unsuccessful, for examples of wasted effort or lives in warfare and a degree of success, no matter how great or small or at whatever cost is preferrable. The Luftwaffe's aborted attempts at subjugating the UK in the summer of 1940 cost the Germans dearly in manpower and equipment. You could argue that even considering launching such attacks against Britain were asking for defeat, but here, other factors come into consideration. Over confidence given German success in the past, poor intelligence before and during the conflict and so forth ensured the Germans were defeated, but at the time they were prepared to try. Same with the Dambusters. The idea was considered smart regardless of the risk, because of what they felt was at stake. Denying factories water so the production of arms is disrupted is a principally clever strategic move, but ultimately proved difficult to execute and was costly in lives.
 
What about using low level Mossies with 4 cannon and MG to clear the defended dam before the lancs went in?
 
MikeMeech said:
Hi
The Sorpe was attacked with Tallboys on 15 October 1944, 18 Lancasters (617 sqn) with 12 bombs from 13,000 and 15,000 feet, it sprang a leek but did not fail. Here is the post attack aerial photo:
View attachment 792975
Info from 'Bombs Gone' by MacBean and Hogben, pages 144-145.

Mike
Click to expand...
Seriously did not know this. It's amazing accuracy the RAF are getting by now considering the 4 or so hits they got on the Tirpitz too...

Presumably best hit for Tallboy would be on the dam edge adjacent to the water filled side?

Possibly more effective than USAAF mass drop but far more risky if fighters get in the mix!
 
gruad said:
Seriously did not know this. It's amazing accuracy the RAF are getting by now considering the 4 or so hits they got on the Tirpitz too...

Presumably best hit for Tallboy would be on the dam edge adjacent to the water filled side?

Possibly more effective than USAAF mass drop but far more risky if fighters get in the mix!
Click to expand...
The Tirpitz was rendered unseaworthy and impossible to repair in operation paravane which had one hit and a few near misses. The British didnt know so continued until it was sunk. With this type of bomb a near miss could be more destructive than a direct hit. So you need an expert on "camouflet" bombs and also an expert on destruction of earthwork dams to find even a good theory about destroying Sorpe. Operation Paravane - Wikipedia
 
I am certainly not minimising the sadness of the losses on the dambusters operation but 46 deaths are up there with those of a single infantry company in one really bad engagement. War is a terrible thing for anybody whether military of any sort or civilians caught in the way. Both the hazards and risks of the dam buster operation were very high but then so were those of infantry assaulting or defending a position both from direct small arms fire and indirect artillery and mortars. War is hard. My father served all through the war from France to Iran and ended up on the Austrian border after seven years via Syria, the whole of North Africa from the Red Sea to the Atlantic and then Sicily and up through Italy and only seeing his family briefly between leaving Dunkirk and sailing to Egypt.

My point is not to suggest that the brave young men on the operation were anything less than brave nor that their losses minor but merely that it was, sadly, not something unusual and many infantry regiments had companys who had suffered similar losses from time to time over the seven years of war, culminating in an acute shortage of men to fill them by 1945. It was not just the Germans who were transferring men from other units and forces into infantry and amalgamating units to keep up operational numbers on the front line. The dambusters mission losses were serious but sadly far from unique. I salute all of them.
 
gruad said:
Sorry did not mean to say reaction was funny to above post but I agree

Bus went round corner and I can't find a way to undo!
Click to expand...

After you "Like" a post, the "Like" button/link becomes a "Remove". Press that and your like will be undone.
 
gruad said:
Better Dambusters - how when I consider the operation a tremendous success.

However it was a suicide mission with 46 out of 133 being killed I think.

Max Hastings in his book says

1. The Mobile reserve was ill considered given its casualties were highest once the defenses were alerted.

2. The attempts to bomb earthworks bombs like the Sorpe were entirely pointless (would the later Tallboy have been effective?)

So if it wasn't such a brutal raid would other stuff like 'Highball' have gone on.

All answers gratefully appreciated
Click to expand...
The wiki article has a listing of bombing results and losses per aircraft.
en.m.wikipedia.org

Operation Chastise - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org

The Admiralty had wanted to be in a position to use Highball first, believing the use of Upkeep would mean a loss of secrecy. Problem was Tirpitz & other big KM ships were in Northern Norway and out of Mosquito range from Scotland. So an attack on them would have meant securing access to a base in Northern Russia. In mid-1943 Highball was also in competition with midget subs for an attack on Tirpitz. In the end the latter won out and Operation Source took place in Sept.

But Highball wasn't dead.

Dropping trials of Highball went on into Sept 1943 with a new order for 250 Highballs placed in Nov.

Then in early 1944 the bulk of the IJN fleet moved to Singapore causing a bit of a panic initially. Plans to use Highball against them then emerged, there or in the Pacific using Mosquitos flying from the 2 new aircraft carriers then approaching completion (Indefatigable & Implacable). More dropping trials took place in Feb 1944, a Mosquito was deck landed for the first time on 25 March 1944 and a decision taken in July to resurrect 618 squadron to drop them. Plans then proceeded with 29 Highball Mosquitos being further modified with arrester hooks and pilots taught to deck land. Finally at the end of Oct 1944 618 was packed up and loaded aboard 2 escort carriers with 24 Highball & 3 PR Mosquitos, and shipped to Australia, arriving just before Christmas 1944.

Unfortunately no use was ever found for 618 in the Pacific so the squadron was disbanded on 14 July 1945 and 125 Highballs destroyed in one massive explosion on 10 July, causing consternation amongst the Sydney population.

Work on Highball was continued into the post-war years, with designs of a Mk.II version to be used by Sea Mosquito TR.33 and Sea Hornets.

US co-operation in their use in the Pacific would have been required and they had a dislike of unusual weapons. It took a lot of persuasion before the midget subs were found a use in July 1945.
gruad said:
What about using low level Mossies with 4 cannon and MG to clear the defended dam before the lancs went in?
Click to expand...
8 aircraft lost. 5 lost outbound (2 hit power cables, 3 to flak including 2 from third wave, one of which strayed a bit from planned route), 1 over the target and 2 homebound. Gibson drew fire for later aircraft at the Mohne.

So a flak suppression escort wouldn't have done much good. It was after Chastise that the AA defences of dams in Germany were beefed up.
 
The Dambusters mission was a success but at great cost. The unforgiveable error is that it was never followed up, the Germans were allowed to repair the dams.
It wouldn't have taken much to keep peppering the site with bombs to keep them from repairing the dams but they just let it go.
 
EwenS said:
The wiki article has a listing of bombing results and losses per aircraft.
en.m.wikipedia.org

Operation Chastise - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org

The Admiralty had wanted to be in a position to use Highball first, believing the use of Upkeep would mean a loss of secrecy. Problem was Tirpitz & other big KM ships were in Northern Norway and out of Mosquito range from Scotland. So an attack on them would have meant securing access to a base in Northern Russia. In mid-1943 Highball was also in competition with midget subs for an attack on Tirpitz. In the end the latter won out and Operation Source took place in Sept.

But Highball wasn't dead.

Dropping trials of Highball went on into Sept 1943 with a new order for 250 Highballs placed in Nov.

Then in early 1944 the bulk of the IJN fleet moved to Singapore causing a bit of a panic initially. Plans to use Highball against them then emerged, there or in the Pacific using Mosquitos flying from the 2 new aircraft carriers then approaching completion (Indefatigable & Implacable). More dropping trials took place in Feb 1944, a Mosquito was deck landed for the first time on 25 March 1944 and a decision taken in July to resurrect 618 squadron to drop them. Plans then proceeded with 29 Highball Mosquitos being further modified with arrester hooks and pilots taught to deck land. Finally at the end of Oct 1944 618 was packed up and loaded aboard 2 escort carriers with 24 Highball & 3 PR Mosquitos, and shipped to Australia, arriving just before Christmas 1944.

Unfortunately no use was ever found for 618 in the Pacific so the squadron was disbanded on 14 July 1945 and 125 Highballs destroyed in one massive explosion on 10 July, causing consternation amongst the Sydney population.

Work on Highball was continued into the post-war years, with designs of a Mk.II version to be used by Sea Mosquito TR.33 and Sea Hornets.

US co-operation in their use in the Pacific would have been required and they had a dislike of unusual weapons. It took a lot of persuasion before the midget subs were found a use in July 1945.

8 aircraft lost. 5 lost outbound (2 hit power cables, 3 to flak including 2 from third wave, one of which strayed a bit from planned route), 1 over the target and 2 homebound. Gibson drew fire for later aircraft at the Mohne.

So a flak suppression escort wouldn't have done much good. It was after Chastise that the AA defences of dams in Germany were beefed up.
Click to expand...
There was only aircraft lost over the dams but the suppression fire was 2 303 guns in the front turret.

A couple of Mossies with 4 cannons would have cleared the AA in 2 passes.

The Lanc would not have been lost and more importantly the attacking Lancs would have got to more accuracy.

Country to popular belief. The first four Lancs didn't weaken the dam. The final Lanc did it all with one perfectly delivered bomb.

So with no AA distractions it would probably been done in 2 or 3 bombs leaving the other 2 or 3 for more productive use.

The Mossies could have been used as escorts. 617 was very lucky not to alert the Nacht Jaeger.
 
MikeMeech said:
Hi
The Sorpe was attacked with Tallboys on 15 October 1944, 18 Lancasters (617 sqn) with 12 bombs from 13,000 and 15,000 feet, it sprang a leek but did not fail. Here is the post attack aerial photo:
View attachment 792975
Info from 'Bombs Gone' by MacBean and Hogben, pages 144-145.

Mike
Click to expand...
Was a JDAM type guidance system attached to a Tall Boy possible with 1944 tech?
 
Admiral Beez said:
Was a JDAM type guidance system attached to a Tall Boy possible with 1944 tech?
Click to expand...

JDAM is, you know, GPS guided. As I'm sure you're aware, GPS satellites were a wee bit in the future back in 1944..

But some form of guidance, why not? The Germans had the HS 293 and Fritz-X, so it's not out of the question the Allies could have developed something similar.
 
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