Better German Aircraft in 1943 Inflict Crucial Losses of Allied Air Power in Britain?

GrauGeist said:

No matter what "wunder waffle" the Germans could come up with, they would still fail due to infighting in the upper command structure, poor doctrine and good plans altered by the Fuhrer.

The Battle of France was one of the first failures, as the "pause" at Dunkirk (regardless of who gave the order) allowed the Allies to save a crucial amount of men.

The Battle of Britain was the next failure. The list of "what the Luftwaffe did wrong" is a long one, but to sum it up, the Allies should have awarded Goering a medal for his contribution in defeating the Luftwaffe.

The He100 had potential, yes. But it required Daimler-Benz engines which were in short supply. It had engine cooling issues (even with a conventional radiator) and it was lightly armed.

The Fw187 was a serious contender *IF* left in it's original form: single-seat fighter.

The He112B would have been a solid platform to perform ground attack during the BoB. It's performance was comparable to the Bf109 and like most fighter-bombers, could defend itself, unlike the Ju87. And this would have been before the debut of the Fw190.

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Pretty much nailed it, here, Dave. That first sentence explains why things are not going to change much in terms of outcome off the bat.

To add to the Fw 187, again, had it been put into production as a single-seat fighter, which would have been a very impressive fighter, but what wouldn't have been built? Fw 190s, which were arguably more important to the Luftwaffe than the hope the Fw 187 might have been, particularly in that the Fw 190 was a far more adaptable airframe. For the Fw 187 to become anything beyond a single-seat day fighter, in reality it would have had to undergo serious redesign to have become a completely new airframe, contrary to the wishes/hopes of the Wehraboo community.

nuuumannn said:

To add to the Fw 187, again, had it been put into production as a single-seat fighter, which would have been a very impressive fighter, but what wouldn't have been built? Fw 190s, which were arguably more important to the Luftwaffe than the hope the Fw 187 might have been, particularly in that the Fw 190 was a far more adaptable airframe. For the Fw 187 to become anything beyond a single-seat day fighter, in reality it would have had to undergo serious redesign to have become a completely new airframe, contrary to the wishes/hopes of the Wehraboo community.

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I would think that the Fw187 would have filled the long-range bomber escort need.

The Bf110, while wearing many hats well, was simply not up to that task and was more a liability than asset in the fighter/escort role.

So then, keep the Bf110 (though in lower production numbers), keep the Bf109 (of course) and stay on course to develop and produce the Fw190.

Produce the Fw187 in numbers that would provide for estimated bomber escort needs only.

No weird dive-bombing, two-man "schnelbomber", night-fighter fantasy trippin' - keep it simple and dedicated to it's single-seat escort role.

GrauGeist said:

I would think that the Fw187 would have filled the long-range bomber escort need.

The Bf110, while wearing many hats well, was simply not up to that task and was more a liability than asset in the fighter/escort role.

So then, keep the Bf110 (though in lower production numbers), keep the Bf109 (of course) and stay on course to develop and produce the Fw190.

Produce the Fw187 in numbers that would provide for estimated bomber escort needs only.

No weird dive-bombing, two-man "schnelbomber", night-fighter fantasy trippin' - keep it simple and dedicated to it's single-seat escort role.

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Completely agree it would have been an excellent escort fighter in its original guise. My point was two-fold though. To put the aircraft in production before the war means that Fw has to not build something else at the time, so what's being left out? This production order comes pre-war, so guessing exactly what is needed and what isn't can't be done without guesstimating and/or a time machine. When the Fw 187 was being demonstrated, The Nazis didn't know they'd invade France and that it'd would fall so easily.

Next, as you've rightly highlighted, Dave, all these imaginary incarnations were not based on the existing Fw 187 airframe. They were redesigns to the extent the aircraft was a completely different beast and came much later than when the aircraft was originally designed.

nuuumannn said:

Completely agree it would have been an excellent escort fighter in its original guise. My point was two-fold though. To put the aircraft in production before the war means that Fw has to not build something else at the time, so what's being left out? This production order comes pre-war, so guessing exactly what is needed and what isn't can't done without guesstimating and/or a time machine.

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Have Fw not making the Bf 110s. Ditto for Gotha (GWF) and MIAG, so they can also make Fw 187s.
Leaves only the MTT and, later, LWB making the Bf 110s.

tomo pauk said:

Have Fw not making the Bf 110s. Ditto for Gotha (GWF) and MIAG, so they can also make Fw 187s.
Leaves only the MTT and, later, LWB making the Bf 110s.

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You're gonna have to fight the big man at the top for that one. Much of the pre-war LW rested on the Bf 110 and the Zerstorer concept - it was a bomber recon platform, which the Fw 187 could not perform, as well as escort fighter.

Again, whose foresight are we using in 1937/1938 to foresee the Fw 187 is gonna be needed when going against Britain in 1940 and afterwards?

nuuumannn said:

You're gonna have to fight the big man at the top for that one. Much of the pre-war LW rested on the Bf 110 and the Zerstorer concept - it was a bomber recon platform, which the Fw 187 could not perform, as well as escort fighter.

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I've listed the MTT as a source for Bf 110s.
Spitfire can hold the cameras, yet Fw 187 cannot. TARDIS application by folks at Supermarine?

nuuumannn said:

Again, whose foresight are we using in 1937/1938 to foresee the Fw 187 is gonna be needed when going against Britain in 1940 and afterwards?

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We use same foresight that specified the Bf 110 as a long-range fighter, just with a smaller aircraft with less drag and weight.

tomo pauk said:

Spitfire can hold the cameras, yet Fw 187 cannot. TARDIS application by folks at Supermarine?

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I think there's a thread somewhere on this. Two separate things. Again though, a lot of things have to happen before Fw get to making redesigns for the type to carry a camera. Not saying it was impossible to convert, just saying it wasn't a part of the design requirement in 1937.

nuuumannn said:

I think there's a thread somewhere on this. Two separate things. Again though, a lot of things have to happen before Fw get to making redesigns for the type to carry a camera. Not saying it was impossible to convert, just saying it wasn't a part of the design requirement in 1937.

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As it was the case with Spitfire or Mustang.

tomo pauk said:

As it was the case with Spitfire or Mustang.

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Again though, how would they know to do this before WW2? If the RLM want it to have a recon capability, Tank goes back to the drawing board. The pressures of wartime expediency affected the Spitfire and Mustang. Two very different scenarios. Context, Tomo, context.

nuuumannn said:

Again though, how would they know to do this before WW2? If the RLM want it to have a recon capability, Tank goes back to the drawing board. The pressures of wartime expediency affected the Spitfire and Mustang. Two very different scenarios. Context, Tomo, context.

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If the RLM wants recon capability, Tank modifies the Fw 187.

tomo pauk said:

If the RLM wants recon capability, Tank modifies the Fw 187.

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Easily said than done, and how long does it take to get into production and what kind of mods? Probably easier to go with what already exists and state the aircraft doesn't have all the capabilities that are needed. It still can't carry bombs without redesign and where does that leave us?

Or the RLM could order the escort fighter without the recon capability initially and have it installed as a later production mod...

The Bf109E-5/6/9 were recon variants, with a camera mounted behind the cockpit.
Given the size of the Bf109's fuselage, it doesn't seem that it would have been difficult to have a camera mounted behind the fuel tank in the Fw187's fuselage.

GrauGeist said:

The Bf109E-5/6/9 were recon variants, with a camera mounted behind the cockpit.
Given the size of the Bf109's fuselage, it doesn't seem that it would have been difficult to have a camera mounted behind the fuel tank in the Fw187's fuselage.

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Yup, its certainly possible. Might have to fiddle about with CG stuff though, particularly since recon cameras were pretty big weighty contraptions. The Bf 109E-7 could carry two cameras of smaller size for tactical imagery, any modded photo recon Fw 187 would have a similar capability, but I see one potential issue, how is that lightly built structure going to enjoy a mix of low-level/high-level stuff? Fatigue?

A couple of things worth noting from the archives, the Fw 187 as we know had excellent performance, but dive speeds were limited because of the onset of flutter in the prototypes of the single-seat fighter as it first appeared in 1937. Hans Sander expressed that he almost abandoned the first prototype because severe vibration had set in during a dive, but it abruptly stopped, so he decided to stay with the aircraft. A close shave for him and this was never properly addressed, although ballast was added in the pre-production airframes. Visibility wasn't great downwards from the cockpit, but the pilot had a clear panel in the floor of the nose for a vertical view that might have assisted with aiming any cameras, but improving the size of the canopy was undertaken, so that would have been different in the production fighter. The first two prototypes had weak undercarriage and both suffered failures of their gear. (No armour plating either, so its bound to fail, just sayin' )

Now the good stuff, those who flew the aircraft commented favourably on its performance and handling, Sander stating that the controls were well-harmonised, although not as effective as the Fw 190, which he was involved it from the start, too. It was faster than the Bf 109 with the same engine at the same altitude (Jumo engined) and revealed a speed of 525 km/h at low level, which was 225 km/h faster than the LW's standard day fighters at the time, the Ar 68 and He 51. Visibility from the cockpit on the ground was not great, but the clear panel in the nose helped and the view improved with the tail up for take-off and was good during landing, too. Sander said the aircraft could be flown hands off on one engine and behaved well in that regime. Aerobatics was different in a twin because of the difference in inertia compared to a single-engined aircraft, but was easy (I'm re-phrasing Sander's words). In a dive, Sander said it accelerated rapidly and the vibration set in at 735 km/h. It's also very pretty - my opinion.

Test pilots at Rechlin were less glowing in their praise (Sander did work for Tank), but appreciated its speed and range compared to the Bf 109, also stating it had high wing loading, equivalent to a Ju 52/3m, and required quick reactions but was found not difficult to handle. Elevator flutter was observed owing to separation of the Flettner tab counterweights during trials. It was not so manoeuvrable whilst taxiing on the ground.

It is, in hindsight odd that even the Kampfzerstorer paper variant that was proposed in 1942 never had the capacity to carry cameras. There's no mention of them in any of the specs for the aircraft, nor is there any mention of cameras in any of the published manufacturer's profile drawings of the type that show equipment fit.

It's entirely possible that the recon feature was overlooked because they were busy envisioning a second crewman, turrets, fixed rear MG, internal/external bomb capabilities and so on and so on.

They literally couldn't see the forest for the trees...

The Germans had several different recon cameras, as did the British.
However one of the standard German cameras was a huge sucker.

It used a 12 in x 12 in negative (or the metric equivalent.) and went around 160lbs or more when installed in an airplane.
The standard British camera used a negative about 1/4 the size. Using an appropriate lens the British camera could make an image where the details were the same size as the German camera (same detail) but each negative only covered area about 1/4 the size.

Many photo recon planes used multiple cameras. two cameras were often mounted so they over lapped images. The cameras didn't take the "paired" photos at exactly the same time but staggered them so the photo interpreters could look at two or more images of the same "detail" from slightly different perspectives, without the photo plane having to fly repeated parallel courses. (which was sometimes done).

Bf 109s did use the big camera but it was far from ideal.

that is the just the film magazine.

That is a compete camera but without the mount.
I don't know if the backseater could change film magazines in flight or not.
Some of the Do 17/Do 215 and other bombers used for recon used two or three of the big cameras in the bomb bay.

You could modify a Fw 187 to be a photo recon plane but like many of the other proposed modified FW 187, something needs to be taken out or performance suffers.
Like the vaunted maneuverability of the Fw 187. Yeah, with Jumo 210s it could out maneuver a 109. Now, without changing the wing, lets add hundreds of kg of engines, more coolant. bigger propellers and so on and then see what the wing loading would be? All the Fw 187 fans want the extra speed, they don't want to admit that some other qualities might be reduced.

pbehn said:

Hitler is toppled to continue a war just with UK and no conflict in the east sounds like a special "Germany wins" scenario.

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Play my way or I'm taking my planes and going home!

Shortround6 said:

That is a compete camera but without the mount.
I don't know if the backseater could change film magazines in flight or not.
Some of the Do 17/Do 215 and other bombers used for recon used two or three of the big cameras in the bomb bay.

You could modify a Fw 187 to be a photo recon plane but like many of the other proposed modified FW 187, something needs to be taken out or performance suffers.
Like the vaunted maneuverability of the Fw 187. Yeah, with Jumo 210s it could out maneuver a 109. Now, without changing the wing, lets add hundreds of kg of engines, more coolant. bigger propellers and so on and then see what the wing loading would be? All the Fw 187 fans want the extra speed, they don't want to admit that some other qualities might be reduced.

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A gun-less Fw 187 recon variant is no rocket science
The Do 17/215 is indeed a good alternative for long-range recon job. Especially if the early Do 17 with streamlined cockpit gets DB 601 (akin to the Do 17MV1 or the the Rs series) or at least Jumo 211 for this.

Wrt. maneuverability: performance > maneuverability in context (we must mind the context, or else...) of fighters of ww2. I like the Fw 187 - even though if I think that a 2-engined day-fighter is not a good option for any Axis country - and I'll sacrifice maneuverability for performance in a hart beat.

GrauGeist said:

It's entirely possible that the recon feature was overlooked because they were busy envisioning a second crewman, turrets, fixed rear MG, internal/external bomb capabilities and so on and so on.

They literally couldn't see the forest for the trees...

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It is a curious thing, particularly since the original requirement for a Zerstorer was to be able to carry cameras and the 1942 variant that the RLM was going to award a production contract to was designed to compete with the Me 210, yet it had no mention of a camera. That is, certainly not within what's been unearthed to date. A recon variant might have been planned or put on paper, but certainly not within what is currently known about the type. It's funny because this is something that the Wehraboos miss as well in their claims about the type.

tomo pauk said:

A gun-less Fw 187 recon variant is no rocket science

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No, but in reality the LW didn't need to "convert" an existing type, with the exception of the Bf 109 Emil. At the outbreak of the war the LW had the largest fleet of reconnaissance aircraft of any air force. It had dedicated tac recon, strategic recon and all manner of aircraft capable of doing the job. Perhaps there wasn't a need for the Fw 187 to do the job when Bf 109s and Bf 110s were already doing it?

Shortround6 said:

The Germans had several different recon cameras, as did the British.
However one of the standard German cameras was a huge sucker.

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Yup, the larger ones were generally for high altitude recon, and normally the camera body was the smallest part of the device, the largest part being the lens assembly, which varied depending on focal length, just like on a normal camera. Different lens sizes could be fitted to different camera bodies. Film bodies were also bulky depending on the duration of the sortie and what's being photographed, particularly if a sequence of images is being taken.

Shortround6 said:

Many photo recon planes used multiple cameras. two cameras were often mounted so they over lapped images. The cameras didn't take the "paired" photos at exactly the same time but staggered them so the photo interpreters could look at two or more images of the same "detail" from slightly different perspectives, without the photo plane having to fly repeated parallel courses. (which was sometimes done).

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Stereoscopic images. This is why recon cameras are usually found in twos because they produce greater detail and the human eye naturally responds to looking at two images close together. It's uncanny how natural it is to view images that way. At a museum I used to work in I did some work in the photo archive and was asked to examine some of the collection's wartime recon images with the stereoscope, sort of spectacles on a stand that you put over the image, and when doing so, voila! the image comes to life in three D. I reckon being a PI would have been an interesting job.

GrauGeist said:

No weird dive-bombing, two-man "schnelbomber", night-fighter fantasy trippin' - keep it simple and dedicated to it's single-seat escort role.

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Many of Germany's problems in WW2 came about from attempts to be too clever. It is one thing to make the most of what you have, but one size can't fit all and fit well.