Bf-109 vs Spitfire vs Fw-190 vs P-51

[Soren]

Yesterday the score was 11-0 for the Ta152, today it's 12-0?

12 to 0 is counting a previously unconfirmed P-51 Mustang shot down, I just forgot about it, Erich has the details.

As for the Ta-152 flown by aces, could you list them please claidemore, I'm really interested to see wether all were aces and had recieved the knights cross... But by the same token German fighter pilots were by 44 mostly rookies with little flying time.

And as for engine weights, relying on Wiki again are we Claidemore ??

 

[Soren]

Several sources indicate that 100 P-72s were ordered into production only to be cancelled because of changing priorities and the advent of the jet which would have been a wise move for Germany if only they could protect their airspace.

1.) Two were built, both were prototypes.
2.) It wasn't ready.
3.) By the time it would've been ready it would've already been outperformed by German a/c.

1944 was the beginning of the jet age, and the Germans were the leaders in this field.

You tend to represent could-have-been German aircraft as viable arguments but dismiss allied could-have-been aircraft.

Nope, not at all. The Me-262, He-162, Ta-152 Fw190 D-12 13 were NOT could-have-been a/c.

But if you want to discuss prototypes could-have-been's I told you that the Germans were ready to put the Jumo 004E Jumo 213EB into production, and these were NO prototypes, these were finished designs. Furthermore the Go229 production design was finished and the a/c was ready to enter production, two production examples were already 90% complete. Also the first P.1101 prototype was 90% complete, and the Ta-183's design production plans were finished.

The fact of the matter is that, if there were no jets and the war continued, none of the advanced German prop planes would have flown very long without significant challenge, just like it had always been.

Depends how you define significant challenge. Fact of the matter is that with the Jumo 213EB there was no Allied prop job in development which could match the Ta-152's performance, and with the Jumo 213J it was far superior in every parameter of performance from SL and up.

BUT, like it had always been, these new German a/c would be out-numbered the day they took to the sky, and seeing that both fuel experienced pilots was in very short to no supply there really was no a/c which could save the Germans from the inevitable defeat.

 

[claidemore]

12 to 0 is counting a previously unconfirmed P-51 Mustang shot down, I just forgot about it, Erich has the details.

As for the Ta-152 flown by aces, could you list them please claidemore, I'm really interested to see wether all were aces and had recieved the knights cross... But by the same token German fighter pilots were by 44 mostly rookies with little flying time.

And as for engine weights, relying on Wiki again are we Claidemore ??

Soren: Actually I checked several different sites about the engine weights, including Wiki. I didn't find any sites as complete as some dedicated to the Saber or Centaurus, but there is info out there.

Oberstleutnant Fritz Aufhammer was the official Kommodore but was mainly an administrator. From III Gruppe came Willi Reschke, Herman Stahl, Josef Keil, Sepp Sattle, Christoph Blum and Heinz Gossow and from JG 300 came Walter Loos.

III Gruppe pilots of note who transferred to the Stab JG 301 were Fw. Willi Reschke, Uffz. Christoph Blum, Ritterkreuzträger Ofw. Heinz Gossow and Staffelkapitän Oblt. Hermann Stahl all of 9. Staffel, along with Sepp Sattler and Josef Keil of 10. Staffel. Keil was to achieve ‘acedom’ on the type. Former Sturmjäger Walter Loos, who had previously flown alongside Walther Dahl in the Stab JG 300 during the summer of 1944 and had achieved some thirty victories also transferred in. In the last weeks of the war both he and Reschke were awarded the Ritterkreuz. Given the number of Knights Cross holders flying Ta 152s at the end of the war some writers have considered the Geschwaderstab of JG 301 to be something of a crack unit..

Aufhammer, the CO, had 5 kills, so definately not in the same league as the others. I guess thats why Sattler was leading the flight when Reschke got his Tempest on April 14/45. Also sheds some light on how Short was able to get the best of Aufhammer in that same fight.

Josef Keil, 16,
Herman Stahl, 7, Knights Cross,
Heinz Gossow, 13,
Walter Loos, 38, Ritterkreuz
Willi Reschke 27, Ritterkreuz
Christoph Blum, 6.

Can't find any stats on Sepp Sattler.

Krazy Kraut: a postive hp/displacement ratio might not indicate total technical superiority, but it is a factor, and does show a significant technical achievement. I think it's worth mentioning.

 

[kool kitty89]

There used to be an excellent site on Junkers engines, unfortunately it seems to have died recently...

The Hugo Junkers Homepage

http://www.geocities.com/hjunkers/ju_jumo210_a1.htm

 

[kool kitty89]

The fact of the matter is there were jets. By the time the XP-72 flew for the first time, even USAAF jet programs had completed their first flights, which I guess contributed to the decision not to pursue the project. Jets were simply the better solution to the problem.
The point was: Simply quoting displacement / hp doesn't tell you everything about the respective aircraft performance nor does it translate into technical superiority.

Actually, by the time the first XP-72 flew (early February 1944), the XP-80 had already flown about a month earlier.

The first flight of the Bell XP-59A Airacomet was in October of 1942.



And Soren I agree on the P-72's viability, it just would have come too late.

The P-47J on the other hand would probably have been available around the same time as the P-47M and N. (first flew in late 1943)

 

[Soren]

Claidemore no Ta-152H was shot down in combat, when will you ever get that ? Stop relying on Wiki for your information. I have Reschke's book and Reschke never said what is written on Wiki, the guy who wrote the story on Wiki completely distorted what was said in the book. But I shouldn't have to tell you this as Bada already provided a scan of the section where Reschke describes the incident.

Sattler crashed for unknown reasons, Reschke seeing him just dive and crash, and this was long before the flight even came close to area where the dogfight would take place.

 

[Soren]

Anyway we really need to get back on topic here...

So far we have the authentic Clmax figures for all a/c, which means we also have the Cdi. We also have the Cd0 figure for the Spitfire 109, but we still need the Fw-190 P-51's.

But we do also have performance figures to look at and help us judge the approx. drag of the a/c.

 

[drgondog]

Anyway we really need to get back on topic here...

So far we have the authentic Clmax figures for all a/c, which means we also have the Cdi. We also have the Cd0 figure for the Spitfire 109, but we still need the Fw-190 P-51's.

But we do also have performance figures to look at and help us judge the approx. drag of the a/c.

Cdo won't get us there Soren. That factor is for zero lift for one condition, and for either the airfoil or the wing, it isn't for total wetted drag of the airplanes in the force balance at all velocities and altitudes.. even the factors for the P-51 (CDwet =0055) is for high speed cruise IIRC at one speed and altitude and there is no direct reference for the flight conditions for the other three fighters' Cdwet.

If we can get reliable thrust conditions and data for each of the engines - or reliable prop efficiencies for each engine/prop syatem we can convert rated Hp as a function of altitude to calculate Thrust

 

[drgondog]

Claidemore no Ta-152H was shot down in combat, when will you ever get that ? Stop relying on Wiki for your information. I have Reschke's book and Reschke never said what is written on Wiki, the guy who wrote the story on Wiki completely distorted what was said in the book. But I shouldn't have to tell you this as Bada already provided a scan of the section where Reschke describes the incident.

Sattler crashed for unknown reasons, Reschke seeing him just dive and crash, and this was long before the flight even came close to area where the dogfight would take place.

With due respect for Satter, I know that for my own calculations of 8th AF FC air to air losses, my totals include shot down, mid air collision in presence of enemy air, crashed into ground attempting to manuever with an enemy aircraft, crashing into a 'victim', unknown causes but in presence of enemy air. That raised the air to air estimates about 13% (higher) losses as shown in my 8th AF Ops tables than suggested in Missing Aircrew Reports.

Why shouldn't Satter be in the same category above?

 

[Soren]

Because Reschke saw him dive out of formation crash in the trees below, and for no apparent reason. Therefore it could be either a mechanical malfunction, not uncommon as a number of Ta-152 had crashed because of this before, or it could be something to do with Sattler. For all we know he could've had a heart attack..

One thing is for certain though, Sattler was not shot down.

 

[drgondog]

Because Reschke saw him dive out of formation crash in the trees below, and for no apparent reason. Therefore it could be either a mechanical malfunction, not uncommon as a number of Ta-152 had crashed because of this before, or it could be something to do with Sattler. For all we know he could've had a heart attack..

One thing is for certain though, Sattler was not shot down.

I'll give an example of confusion that can occur. On November 13, 1943 Lt Col Hubbard, Gp Exec of the 355th was leading the 355th - essing over the top of B-17s coming off the target on the way home over Zwolle when, in the middle of his turn - he experienced very heavy vibration and the engine tore out of his mounts.

He bailed out and evaded. His wingman was 100 yards away saw Hubbard's ship in distress and watched him bail out.

The official cause was structural failure and that is what he reported when hr returned after D-Day.

What he didn't know is that FW Wiegand from JG26 shot down a B-17 and in a climbing pass shot down a P-47 over Zwolle then dove away - where Hubbard went down. Wiegand's claim matches up with Hubbard's loss but we will both agree it is not a certain match

I simply would question dismissing a shoot down - but not really interested enough in arguing about it.

I'm not interested one way or the other in the Ta 152 win loss record, but wonder about completeness of unit records in April and early May 1945 to be able to say with certainty that none were lost.

 

[Soren]

The unit's records are quite complete AFAIK, and Reschke would ofcourse have known if anyone in his small unit got shot down, fact is though that none were.

Anyhow Sattler was for sure not shot down, his plane just suddenly started to dive and then crashed in the woods below, Reschke saw it all happen with no response from Sattler. So it was either a mechanical malfunction or something to do with Sattler himself. IMO the most probable of the two, based on Reschke's description of the event, is that Sattler suffered something health related, be it a stroke etc etc one can only speculate.

 

[claidemore]

A stroke or heart attack? That is highly improbable, this was a young fighter pilot. Mechanical malfunction OTOH is entirely possible, even probable. Of course his health problem could have been due to ingestion of 20mm Hispano shells. lol

But here is a combat report from that day in that place, that agrees pretty much with how Sattler went in. BTW, Sattler and Mitchells planes were less than 1 km apart, (as stated in that posted clip ?) so he did not go down a long time before the dogfight.

F/Lt. Sheddan of 486 Squadron recorded in his Combat Report for 14 April 1945:

I was flying pink 1 on a weather recce of the Perleberg – Ludwigslust area, when just west of Ludwigslust, whilst pulling-up after attacking a train I saw a silver colored a/c at deck level flying due north.
My own height was 2000 ft and I dived down behind it and gave chase followed by the other 3 a/c of my section. When about 700 yards from it I recognized it was an F.W. 190. The 190 did not take any evasive action and I closed to a 100 yards and opened fire with one second burst in dead line astern.
I saw large pieces come away from the wings and fuselage and I pulled out to port of the 190 and slightly above. Looking back I saw the starboard wing of the 190 drop and it rolled on its back, hit the ground and exploded.
I claim 1 F.W. 190 Destroyed.
Cine Camera used. 117

We have two claims for "190s" in the area, and Shaws claim is at exactly the same time, the time of Sheddans claim is unknown. What I like about the Shedden shootdown, is the location, the height, the fact that it was a quick 1 second burst "bounce" situation with the Tempest climbing away and having to look down to see the FW go into the ground.

I think it is just as likely that Sheddan shot Sattler down, as a mechanical malfunction. Short mentions seeing another flight of 4 planes during the dogfight, given his poor aircraft identification skills (documented), it's entirely possible it was Sheddans flight.

Also, Aufhammers plane was shot up by Short, did he RTB or have to bail out at some point? If he did rtb, was the plane a write off?

We have at 3 possible scenarios where a Tempest pilot could have shot down a Ta152 on that date. We might not be able to prove it conclusively, but in stating the kill/loss ratio of the Ta152, an objective person should be mentioning that it is at least a possibility.

 

[Soren]

I know men in their 20 30's who have died of strokes Claidemore (one while out jogging) and it's the most probable considering what happened.

All three were flying in formation when Reschke saw Sattler's plane start to dive, and with no response from Sattler at all, until it crashed into the woods below. There were no enemy a/c present or Reschke and his wingman would've seen them, and Sattlers a/c was not damaged either, it just suddenly nose dived.

As for Aufhammer being hit, where the heck did you get that from ?? Both flew back in formation and Reschke mentions nothing of his wingman's a/c being hit or damaged at all.

 

[slaterat]

You cannot conclusively state that Shedden did not shoot Sattler down. Just because his wingmen didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen. If you've read anything about WW II air combat you would know that this senario is entirely plausable and indeed likely.

Slaterat

 

[claidemore]

Soren: I got that from Mitchells wingmans combat report. Mitchell and Reschke were going round and round on the deck, but Short took Aufhammer into a climbing turn. Short outturned Aufhammer in the climbing turn (3 turns), while Mitchell got outturned by Reschke in the level turn fight (though it took a bit longer).

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/tempest/486-shaw-14april45.jpg

Note the time in the report, and that Short misidentifies the Ta152s as 109s. Note also that Short did not see Sattlers plane, but did see a flight of four planes above, which if my theory is correct, would be Sheddans flight. The pieces fit pretty good.

I see no mention in the quote from "Wilde Sau" about Aufhammer and Reschke returning in formation (in Badas post). If Reschke mentions this in another book, the fact that he doesn't mention any battle damage to Aufhammers plane could be contributed to memory after such a long time. Particularly since the damage didn't happen to his own plane, but to someone elses.
It's quite obvious from Reschkes account, that it was written a long time after the war, he says "Today I can't remember the sequence of most ugly curses that I used then."

All the accounts, Shaws, Reschkes and Shedden say the plane in question dove to the ground and exploded. Mitchells Tempest however somehow managed to land in the forest more or less intact.

Two clips from Badas post:

 

[claidemore]

Furthermore, after doing a bit more research (more to be done), Reshke claims that Herman Stahl and his Ta152 were lost in a combat with Yak 9s on April 24/45. But other documents say that Stahl was killed in combat on April 11 while flying wingman with Josef Keil.
Reschke says both he and Walter Loos got two Yak 9s on april 24, but Loos says he never got any victories with the Ta 152. Seems like a lot of confusion there.


BTW, Neustadt-Glewe, the airfield the Ta152s took off from on April 14, was only 5 miles from Ludwigslust. Thats about 1 minute flying time in a Ta152, it was just before sunset 19.30 hrs, sunset at 20:15. Short and Mitchell were north of Ludwigslust, so Reschkes flight was headed due west, looking directly into the setting sun.

On the 16th of April, Shaw and Sheddan shared a kill on a "190" which had just taken off from Neustadt. Two other 486 pilots, Schrader and Reid, each bagged a "long nosed" 190 over Neustadt on that day. Since there were both Doras and Ta152s flying from that airfield, any of those 3 planes could have been a Ta152.
April 24th, 130 Sq Spit XIVs shot down 3 +1 damaged (nosed over while landing) right at Neustadt.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I have to agree with the others here. Just because no one saw him get shot down, does not mean he was not shot down. Soren, in the heat of combat you dont allways see everything.

 

[kool kitty89]

If it was it would seem that it was a pilot kill, as there was no smoke/trailig fluids/ debris seen by the other 152 pilots, and of course, no bail out.

 

[drgondog]

If it was it would seem that it was a pilot kill, as there was no smoke/trailig fluids/ debris seen by the other 152 pilots, and of course, no bail out.

For that type 'unexplained' loss of control there are usually three root causes - natural and very sudden death (unlikely but possible), stray rifle bullet or projectile killing the pilot instantly, or a mechanical failure like oxygen causing unconsciousness (no radio warning of trouble) - also unlikely particularly at low altitude.

Any other explanations?