Bf-109 vs Spitfire vs Fw-190 vs P-51

[Udet]

Hello Soren,

I don't know Soren. By the time the USAAF would have send the B-29's to Germany (Thank God it never happened) it would have maybe been around August/September 45. Let's forget the A-Bomb – even though it was designed/meant for Hitler Germany – these Ta-152 which would not have been around in any significant numbers before September 45 would have had to face F-80's and British Vampires as B-29 escort planes rather than just US props.

Regards
Kruska

And why is it that you only see the uberAllies deploying their most advanced designs in combat? Any further protraction of the war would have had the Germans deploying a bigger number of improved jets to form welcome committees to slam the USAAF.

Now, did you say Vampire there? Is it a joke? Referring to the "second" jet plane "commissioned" by the RAF "during world war two"

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

And why is it that you only see the uberAllies deploying their most advanced designs in combat? Any further protraction of the war would have had the Germans deploying a bigger number of improved jets to form welcome committees to slam the USAAF.

Then how come the uberGermans did not slam the USAAF to begin with?

Come on Udet...

 

[kool kitty89]

The Meteor would have been much further in development, much sooner if it hadn't been for the Rover mess. (delayed Whittle jet development by ~2 years)


The Vampire (and Goblin) was originaly a private venture, and had expiremental status with the air ministry and the entire project ran at relatively low priorety (compared to the meteor). Had it had more intrest(and DH not bogged down with other developemt and production, ie Mossie, and Hornet), it should have been operational by about the same time as the Meteor III was in reality.

But we've discussed this elsewhere http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/mistakes-aviation-12424.html and this is getting progressively off topic.

 

[drgondog]

F-80's couldn't make the range to pennetrate deep into germany and still have enoughfuel to fight for any meaninful amount of time before turning back. (that's if they had the larger 230 US gal tip-tanks, with 165 gal, much less, with the 265 gal tanks also later used on the F-80 it might have made it. If it could have been modified to carry the 300 gal P-38 tanks it should have had the pennetration range -however, it would have required strengthening the wing, as the 265 gal tanks were already threatening to overstress the tips-)

That's if operating from England. From mainland Europe it's another story.


And the P-80 is the only allied jet with near the range required for escort.

Vampire Mk.I and (particularly) the Meteor are out.

The only rational discussion about extending the war would have been for Germany to hold at the Rhine and hold off the Soviets - not likely but conceivavble for another couple of months.

P-80 in full service from bases in Belgium and northern Italy, B-29s not a factor unless decision to drop the Bomb on Berlin - P-51H still a decent player against 190D and even the Ta 152.. but I would have hard time thinking the LW would not put all their eggs in one basket with so few natural resources left - and basically settle on 262 for everything. So the basic players in fighter/fighter at high altitude are the Meteor/Vampire/P-80 - and the 51Hs and P-47M/N's are lurking over every 'deep' airfield 12x7 every day...and Yak 3, Laag 7, Spits, Jugs and 38s everywhere else that would be my thinking.

There are only so many ways to get POL to/from remaining refineries, only so many places to stay hidden for only a short time before interdiction in an area the size of maybe colorado and surrounded on all sides and a/c at all altitudes. Look at just April with respect to just the number destroyed on the Ground..

 

[Soren]

Hello Soren,

I don't know Soren. By the time the USAAF would have send the B-29's to Germany (Thank God it never happened) it would have maybe been around August/September 45. Let's forget the A-Bomb – even though it was designed/meant for Hitler Germany – these Ta-152 which would not have been around in any significant numbers before September 45 would have had to face F-80's and British Vampires as B-29 escort planes rather than just US props.

Regards
Kruska

Hardly Kruska. Had the war lasted that long the Ta-152H would've been in numerous supply, but more importantly so would the improved Me-262's equipped with Jumo 004E engines which easily outperformed any Allied jet in every aspect of flight.

Also the He-162 would've had its bugs worked out. The He-162A-2 was already a good airframe, but the pilots needed more training regarding its yaw characteristics.

Also the by Sept 45 the Vampire would've not been ready to escort any bombers, and the range was lacking as-well. Same goes for the P-80 which still had some serious issues which needed ironed out. And then ofcourse there's the low high alt performance of the P-80 (780 - 790 km/h), something which would've proven a real problem if it was to escort the B-29 when the Germans were fielding the Jumo 004E equipped Me-262's racing along at 930 km/h.

Still that having been said, the Germans would still be hugely outnumbered and without fuel and trained pilots, and so the outcome would be the same. (I think Bill pointed this out as-well)

Then how come the uberGermans did not slam the USAAF to begin with?

They did, but they were outnumbered, without fuel trained pilots. With that in mind what would you expect ?

 

[kool kitty89]

Yep, not until the Vampire F.3. (and still not as long as the P-80)

And not in all performance characteristics soren. Even by calculated data.
(assuming you're talking 004D/E)

Roll rate of the 262 was worse than the Vampire or P-80. (but better than the Meteor III) And it (probably -based on lift loading and thrust/weight- in similar configuration) would have out-turned the P-80A, but not the Vampire I or Meteor III.

Speed would probably be better than all, (probably ~570 mph) though the P-80A would be the closest. Climb probably better as well. (not sure about a 2,450 lbf Derwent IV powered Meteor III)


Dives would continue to be a problem for the German jets untill better speed regulation with airbrakes. (which the Ho 229 had)

 

[kool kitty89]

But we have threads for these discussions: http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/players-prolonged-war-12415.html

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/mistakes-aviation-12424.html



So let's get back on topic.

Soren could you post the Fw-190/Ta-152 specification and performance tables I asked about earlier?

 

[claidemore]

Hardly Kruska. Had the war lasted that long the Ta-152H would've been in numerous supply,

Good grief Soren, production of the Ta152 couldn't even keep up with the needs of one Stab in JG301!

Your statement that German fighters were usually superior to allied fighters up to 25000 ft is a pretty big stretch amigo.

 

[kool kitty89]

Up to 20,000 ft in a dogfight, aganst US escort fighters (not including the P-38J) that statement is fairly plausible.

The Fw 190 (up to A-8/9/D-9) being best at or below ~20,000 ft. And the lower alt versions of the 109 likewise. The high alt 109's (with high alt supercharger ie D-10/K-4) are another story.


"better" or "best" are really too subjective and general discriptions to really mean much in this sence though.


And of course, escort fighters were usually not at there best possible performance as they had to carry the extra fuel to get there, fight, and get back.

 

[parsifal]

The only way for germany to gain the time needed to bring her advanced designs into the serius league was to somehow break the grand alliance ranged against her.

This could have been achieved in a number of ways, but as the war progressed germany's options became ever more restricted.

As i see it, until Kursk, the Germans had the option of a separate peace with russia. The Russians would never have held this peace for more than a year, and the cost in territory would have been very high (basically back to the 1940 borders. The nett benefit to the Germans may have been six months compared to history.

The next bet would be a 1941-2 enhanced U-Boat camapign. With two or three times the number of boats, Britain was in deep trouble, but the Quid pro Quo is a ramped up US production earlier, ramped up CW production and no Russian invasion. Difficult to gauge the effects of this stategy. Some argue outright Axis victory, but my opinion is probably not. Perhaps the war would extend another year or two, at best, with British position compromised in the post war world.

Third and final major deviation from history is somehow defeating the western ground armies In italy and/or Normandy. The one area that the US was vulnerable was trained manpower for its army. If the US was forced back into the sea at Normandy the Germans might have gained a breather for a year or so.

So given those broad parameters, we might see the war extend for another year, to the middle of 1946, or at the outside to the middle of 1947. What technological wizz bangery could the Germans come up in that time to stem the Allied and Soviet attacks???? Would it be enough to achieve a separate permanent peace for germany, given the near insane attitude of its leadership

 

[kool kitty89]

That's why I think it's more interesting to look at "what ifs" from the early war period. (either technological, political, strategic, or, usually, a combination of them)

 

[Kruska]

The only way for germany to gain the time needed to bring her advanced designs into the serius league was to somehow break the grand alliance ranged against her.

This could have been achieved in a number of ways, but as the war progressed germany's options became ever more restricted.....

The only way for Germany to win, would have been the annihilation of the BEF and the French remainders at Dunkirk. I hope my "British Friends" are not getting this wrong. Straight pursue to England, if successful okay wunderbar –if not well North Africa and therefore the Middle-East and Suez would have been in German hands and would have turned any British opposition into a hopeless undertaking.

Britain was the key, but lunatic Adolf had this "Germanic" thing in him. Anything else, be it Stalingrad or Kursk would have prolonged the war but Germany would still have lost in the end.

Regards
Kruska

 

[parsifal]

Britains pivotal role in the war was not so much the material contribution that she made, great though this was. More than anything it was her refusal to surrender, and then her tireless efforts to forge a new alliance to defeat the enemy that shines as her major contribution.

Even with the British isles under axis control, which is something I hotly dispute as being even remotely possible, the British planned to carry on the fight from Canada and the dominions. Sure this is reducing the British contribution significantly, but the USA is going to ramp up her wartime footing much more quickly under this scenario, and the Soviet thret remain unresolved. Germany in my view is still facing a strategic blind alley, unless she can force two out of the three BIG THREE out of the war. One is just not enough (well, assuming that the SU is not forced permanently out of the war)

 

[kool kitty89]

Again there are other topic for this and it's been discussed before. (includeing in the thread I linked to)

Included in the other discussion were alternatives for keeping the US out of the war (or very confused about the position) by Germany severing ties with Japan after Pearl Harbor (or even declairing war) with 2 other alternatives as well: either try to stay out of a war with Britain and go in full force to Russia (more likely to keep the US out as well) or a more organized and purposeful cordinated attack on Britain, with fully ramped-up military production and coordination of army, navy, and airforce for the invasion, also a more coordinated attack on the radar, or fly in below radar. (they'd have to hit hard and fast to knock out enough of the RAF -11 and 12 group- and keep the Royal Navy and FAA held off in coordination with the invasion, and it would be a very costly battle, but thinks would have to have been done different from Dunkirk onward as well)

If a continued Battle with Britain was to occur, the Russian invasion would have to be put on hold almost indefinitly as well.


With either of these they'd have to develop the advanced projects as well at fairly quick pace with strong interest from the government. These (possibly including Nuclear weapons) could have lead to a similar, but notably different (in terma of major players) cold war type stalemate.

 

[parsifal]

so try and put this back on thread, would you agree that it is plausible to give Germany say and additional 12 months if she had played things differently. all i am trying to do here is come up with some plausible testimeny so that the guys arguing about the advantages (or otherwise) of german aerospace technology could be explored within some meaningful framework

 

[kool kitty89]

I'm still waiting for soren's data tables...


But I don't think any of these a/c (in the original discussion) are "better" overall, as all have certain advantages and different optimal uses.

The Spifire and 109 being the best "dogfighters" specifically, but the others have their own advantages. Though at high speed (and using energy tactics) the P-51 is better. (generally more maneuverable at high speed -above ~350 mph- and retains speed and accelerates better compareatively than the others in this speed regime, and has a high crusing speed -giving initial speed advantage-)

The Fw 190 (up to D-9) is more maneuverable at most speeds than the Mustang up to medium altitudes. And very high roll rate. (significantly higher than others, at least up to medium speeds)

The 190A's alsa have a rugged radial engine.

Both the P-51D and Fw 190 have excellent all-around views due to the bubble-type canopies. (although view over the nose of the 190 is restricted)

 

[parsifal]

To the un-initiated, a very reasonable general sumary of the aircraft capabilities. Keep in mind, however that in 1944, under the historical scenario, the German losses of fighters to allied fighters were far heavier. This suggests that at the end of the day there were forces at work other than the equipment that were dictating the outcomes.

I for one reject the notion, incidentally that the LW was shot out of the sky because of numbers. It was a factor, but not THE factor

 

[claidemore]

The problem with 'what if' scenarios is that it is not a one sided coin, for every different action there is going to be a different reaction.

If Germany had done, "this", then the Allies would have countered with "This".

End result would be basically the same, given the available manpower, material and prime motivation of the two sides. Germany was not going to win that war no matter what it did.

________________________________________________________

As for German fighters reigning supreme below 25k, don't forget we have other main fighters beside the P51 and P38. We also have the P47, Typhoon, Tempest and Spitfire, not to mention the P39, Yak 1/7/9/3 and La5/7. All of those nine types had certain advantages over the 109 or 190, with the end result that the Allied fighters were 'usually superior' to the German fighters, not the other way around. The only real fighter advantage Germany had was the Me262 (speed) which was operating in an environment where it was outnumbered 50-1 so was doomed from the outset.

And I totally agree with Pasifal, if numerical advantage was the only factor, Germany would not have shot down 2000 Russian planes in a few days in 1941.

 

[drgondog]

Soren - although we have hashed this before, what are your definitions of 'outnumbered' and without fuel and trained pilots.. Chris asked the right question about the 'beginning.

I have a tendency to look at the air war as evolutionary regarding tactics and assets.

The Luftwaffe controlled the air over the occupied countries in Europe until the Mustangs took it away. Even when the air battles of February through June took out many experienced pilots and a/c in the west, the LW continued to rotate Ost front pilots and leaders (i.e like Rall) to try and stem the tide.

True, the LW could not match the skills of a 200-300 hour USAAF or Commonwealth pilot who graduated from flight school with student pilots with the same experience entering combat for first time after the oil campaign was being felt in mid 1944.

LuftFlotte Reich was not outnumbered over Germany by Allied fighters over Germany until fall of 1944 when all the Jugs and Spits and Typhoons that had moved to France and Belgium were available for tactical sorties over Germany to compliment the Strategic escorts with the bombers. Prior to that period, only the 8th AF P-38s and 51s were available deep into Germany where the LuftFlotte Reich could choose where they wanted to fight.

So, back to the question - how do you define outnumbered? Wheels on the ground in England or props over the ground over Germany?

Last - Around the Channel the Luftwaffe was Seriously outnumbered by 8th and 9th AF Fighters plur RAF and only really had two JG26 and JG2 to pick and choose where they wanted to engage.. but that isn't where the Luftwaffe was broken, nor were they ever in a position of controlling the air over France, Holland and Belgium after summer of 1943 - as their tactics of challenging the 8th AF changed to attacking after escort fighters reached max range and had to turn back - usually far western Germany.

 

[drgondog]

I'm still waiting for soren's data tables...


But I don't think any of these a/c (in the original discussion) are "better" overall, as all have certain advantages and different optimal uses.

The Spifire and 109 being the best "dogfighters" specifically, but the others have their own advantages. Though at high speed (and using energy tactics) the P-51 is better. (generally more maneuverable at high speed -above ~350 mph- and retains speed and accelerates better compareatively than the others in this speed regime, and has a high crusing speed -giving initial speed advantage-)

The Fw 190 (up to D-9) is more maneuverable at most speeds than the Mustang up to medium altitudes. And very high roll rate. (significantly higher than others, at least up to medium speeds)

The 190A's alsa have a rugged radial engine.

Both the P-51D and Fw 190 have excellent all-around views due to the bubble-type canopies. (although view over the nose of the 190 is restricted)

KK - for it is worth I agree the premise that all these ac aer superb and each has advantages in performance - what Soren and I are trying to get to publically is to set the boundary conditions, agree them, (including calculation rules) and see what falls out.

It's not all on Soren. I haven't been able to find bench thrust tables for all the engines we need to compare. I dread the time I see spending doing propeller and HP combination calculations and candidly I don't trust the output.

Soren, I'm going to look at Gene's spreadsheets and ponder his assumptions, particularly with respect to speed versus hp as a function of altitude even if we do decide to do the THP conversions.

I recommend that we deal only with performance data published in Paul's recently created Technical - Performance section. So, if anyone has data they want to use it has to be from Mfr or LW/RAE/USAAF test results and has to either have a link or be published here.