Bf-109 vs Spitfire vs Fw-190 vs P-51

[bada]

The assertion that the TA152H was the best fighter developed in WW2 once again strikes me as comical.

Not if you read about his abilities, from a english pilot that bring the plane to england

This vaunted AC keeps jumping up in this forum as the "best" without much evidence except paper numbers which may or may not reflect it's true operational capabilities. Let us examine that assertion. My source ,"The Great Book of WW2 Aircraft," has a whole section on the various FW fighters and it states that only a several TA152Hs reached combat units. It was essentially a prototype aircraft purpose built to intercept high flying bombers.

Your book is so wrong my dear.
the prototypes are coded V-Series in the LW.
the 152H-0 was the pre-series airplane used for test flights(debugging) and school.
the 152H-1 was the first official production serie.

So, this productionserie is called "a protoype"???? man, it has to be really a good book

It's purpose was the aerial supremacy and not a destroyer like you seem to argue.

The performance of thise plane were simply "higher and faster", the goal for this plane was the bomber's escort!

It's performance figures showed very high speeds(similar to the P47N) at very high altitudes where little ACM took place. It's low altitude performance was substantially worse(not as good as P51D.)"

It's peformances were ,like i've wrote above: higher and faster. No WWII plane could achieve the same specs at high alt as the ta152,none!

And about the comment on the low alt performance, i'd like to rember you the fact that those planes could out-maneuvre the tempest at the deck, ask the guys from the 486sq if you want.
and what is the p51 donwlow performance? how do you think it was flying the p51 i a domain that it wasn't build for?

It's armament was obviously fitted for bomber shootdowns(3 cannon) although pilot visibility would probably limit it's ability to use full deflection shots so it would have to, of necessity, stick with headon or rear quarter attacks with the attendent danger of defensive gunfire.

that's a guess, right???? OR maybe you don't know that all the LW fighters were equipped with Canons????
that was their primary weapon. So, there were 2 mg151/20E and one 30mm mk108 high velocity canon,
you know, one bullet, one kill?!
Also, you don't seem to know the subject very well, the visibilty and especially deflection,in any 190 (yes, the ta152 is a 190 and their cockpit is the same), was better than in any spitfire.
About your last phrase in this quote : see above: NOT a bomber killer!

It's initial rate of climb, 3345 fpm with boost was good but not exceptional.

it was good; but what is the RoC of a fully loaded p47N or p51D again????

The 3 cannon armament would not necessarily stand it in good stead in ACM against allied fighters and it of course labored with the handicap of the vulnerable cooling system of the liquid cooled engine.

do you know the results af a 30mm shell in a spit-wing??? search on youtube, you'll see what happens to a wing that is not under stress,
and then simply imagine what it would be if the plane was bancked or loaded!

And what was is wrong with the water-cooling system? did the p-51 have a new magical undestructible plasma not leaking cooling system?

As with most European fighters it was range challenged with a max range clean of 755 miles and 1250 miles with a drop tank. These are yardstick ranges which would probably translate to combat radiuses of perhaps 275 to 400 miles.

Again, a guess??? or did you calculated the engine fuel consumption? can help you with that if you want, got the 152 manual.

These were good for an interceptor but not competitive with P51D, P47N, P38L or F4U4.

Not competitive with what? range only? Germans hadn't the need to fly far away, they were resticted to their territory!

Now let us get away from paper numbers and talk about combat experience. How many kills did the TA152 have? Not many!.

12 official kills, losses to ennemy or ground-fire: none
Not bad for a plane the flew only in by the ennemy overpopulated sky.

How many AC did it destroy strafing? Probably none.!

you're absolutly right, and how many kills or straffings kills or even bombs did the p51H have?

oups, none, because it even didn't flew operationnaly in the WWII! and then in corea, was too slow as fighter and too fragile as ground pounder!

How many tons of bombs and rockets did it belabor the enemy with? Probably none.

not build as straffer or even bomber

How many bombers did it succesfully escort to their targets and back? Probably none.

a lot actually, most of the jg301 missions were to escort 190d-9 harrassing mostly soviet troops.

How reliable was it and how many were operational for a certain mission of the AC available? We don't know..

yes, we know, the story of each airframe can be found in GOOD-books about the ta152, not in a simplified 100 pages encyclopedy

What would have been the mission of the TA152 in the Pacific with tropical temperatures, coral landing strips and long distances? Probably very mission limited.

What will the 152 do there??? What would your car do if put on the antarctic continent? or the moon?

How well could the TA152 have executed carrier landings and takeoffs? It could not have done any!

Very well actually, the stall speed was 130km/h...or did you forget what those big,large wings do on airplanes?

The TA152 was essentially an experimental fighter, an elegant looking airplane with seductive performance figures on paper in certain flight regimes. "Best" fighter design in WW2. Not in my book!

Yes, i admit, it was a kind of experimantal plane, but much less than the p80 for example

No, just jocking, see the first answer: they were chain-produced!

About you book: i would close it, never open it again and go on the web and search for real books (yes those are mostly exepensives) in any online book shop you can find, and if those books are written by polish, or french guys, buy them immediately cause at least, those books are'nt biased!

and about the reschke story:

Sorry Soren for the OT

 

[marshall]

Wrong Claidemore, no Ta-152 was ever shot down.

Reschke:

"We reached the position at an altitude of 200 metres, just at the moment when both Tempests after diving started climbing again. Just as the dogfight was developing Sepp Stattler, on our side, was hit and his plane fell like a stone out of the sky [...] The Tempest which I attacked quickly reached the same height as me and was [at] approximately 10 o'clock before me. The dogfight began between 50 and 100 metres above ground level and very often the wing tips passed close over the treetops.[...] The whole fight was executed in a left-hand turn, the low altitude of which would not allow for any mistakes. Ever so gradually I gained metre by metre on the Tempest and after a few circles I had reached the most favourable shooting position. [...] I pressed my machine-gun buttons for the first time [...] I could see the Tempest for a short moment in straight ahead flight displaying slightly erratic flying behaviour. But immediately she went straight back into the left turn. [...] I sighted the Tempest very favourably in my cross-hairs and could not have missed but my machine-guns experienced feeding problems. I therefore tried to shoot it down with my cannon and forced her into a tight left-hand turn from where she tipped out over her right wing and crashed into a forest."


According to Reschke it was shot down.

 

[Soren]

Nope, it wasn't hit by any a/c. And read above, Sattler's aircraft fell to the ground long before the dogfight ever started, and I quote "For no apparent reason!".

Also please don't leave out that Reschke mentions in his own book that while the Tempest was riding on its very edge of performance, being very close to the stall, the Ta-152H was never even close to its limits. It's in the book, Wilde Sau..

 

[bada]

Zobacz co jest nagorze

English: please, look above.

 

[Soren]

To demonstrate just how effective those high AR wings were note that the Ta-152H needs a runway of just 295m, that's a shorter take off run than ANY Spitfire, 109, F4U 190 model, and only a fraction of the distance the P-51, P-47 Tempest needed!

This was just one of the Ta-152H very positive points, it needed a much shorter runway than any other fighter in service, allowing it to take off land on much smaller airstrips.

It's no wonder that the pilots who transitioned to the Ta-152H were absolutely baffled by the extreme acceleration the airplane displayed, Reschke noting that it was like being strapped to a rocket, the head being thrown back into the head rest.

 

[marshall]

Zobacz co jest nagorze

English: please, look above.

We were posting at the same time, I haven't seen your post when I wrote mine.

But why Reschke says that "Just as the dogfight was developing Sepp Stattler, on our side, was hit and his plane fell like a stone out of the sky"?

 

[Glider]

Nope, it wasn't hit by any a/c. And read above, Sattler's aircraft fell to the ground long before the dogfight ever started, and I quote "For no apparent reason!".

Also please don't leave out that Reschke mentions in his own book that while the Tempest was riding on its very edge of performance, being very close to the stall, the Ta-152H was never even close to its limits. It's in the book, Wilde Sau..

Personally I would be a little worried about planes that explode for no apparant reason. In a combat zone that normally means someone hit it, but no one saw what. Very common in air combat.

 

[Soren]

The effects of AR on the L/D ratio of a wing:

AR of 4

AR of 9

And why is the L/D ratio then important ?? Because it dictates the energy (Speed) retention in turns, i.e. everything else being equal the a/c with the highest L/D ratio can turn tighter for longer without losing speed.

And to demonstrate it mathematically:

L/D ratio = Lift / Drag

And so the L/D ratio is = Cl / Cd

And here to demonstrate the difference between a wing with an AR of 6 with one of 8 (We'll leave out Cd0 as it's irrelevant and wont affect the outcome):

Wing with an AR of 6:
(1.3^2) / (pi*6*.80) = 0.112071606

1.3 / 0.112071606
___________
L/D ratio = 11.59

Wing with an AR of 8:
(1.3^2)/(pi*8*.80) = 0.0840537043

1.3 / 0.0840537043
___________
L/D ratio = 15.46

That's a difference of 33.3% in favour of the wing with the AR of 8, which means the higher AR wing features 33.3% more lift for every amount of drag produced. (Or 33.3% less drag for every amount of lift if you will)

 

[Soren]

But why Reschke says that "Just as the dogfight was developing Sepp Stattler, on our side, was hit and his plane fell like a stone out of the sky"?

Where does he say that Marshall ??

What Reschke says is that upon approaching the opponents Sattler's a/c fell to the ground for no apparent reason. A mechanical malfunction, something medical with Sattler etc etc one of these could be the culbrit.

 

[ponsford]

W/O W. J. Shaw of 486 Squadron shot down the TA 152 of Ofw Sepp Sattler from Stab/JG 301.

Shaw's report:
"I was flying Pink 2 whilst diving to attack Met on a road about 10 miles east of Ludwigslust I saw a single Fw.190 flying east at deck level. I reported this to Pink 1 who ordered me to follow him in to attack. The 190 broke when we were out of range as I could see that my No.1 would be unable to attack I dropped my tanks climbed for height. As the E/A straightened out east I dived on it – passing my No. 1. This time the 190 broke rather later again to port I was able to pull my bead through until he disappeared beneath my nose. It was a full deflection shot I opened fire when I judged I had 2 radii deflection on him. I fired a long burst then broke upwards to observe results. As the 190 came in sight again I saw the flash of a strike just forward of the cockpit. An instant later, flames appeared from the port side , enveloped in flames, the 190 went down in a gradual straight dive to the deck. I saw it crash in a field explode.
Cine camera used
I claim 1 Fw.190 destroyed."

It's possible that it was a couple of 109's that shot Mitchell down and not Reschke.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/tempest/486-shaw-14april45.jpg

 

[Soren]

Wrong ponsford. No Ta-152 was ever shot down, and that shootdown has nothing to do with Sattler's crash, completly unrelated. Note he claims 1 FW190 destroyed, and mentioned nothing peculiar about the a/c. And there's no mistaking a Ta-152 for a Fw-190, thats for sure!

And Reschke DID shoot down Mitchell, he was trailing him after having fired at him when he saw him crash for crying out loud!

 

[drgondog]

The factory flight test for the P-51H without wing racks was 487mph at 8500 pounds Take Off weight at 25,000 feet and the top ceiling was never tested due to lack of pressurization. The latter is only important in the context of performance at say 38,000 feet would still show the H to have decent climb performance but still below the Ta 152H.

The performance with same boost - 80" at 8500# Gross Take Off, no stores, was 463mph at 15,000 feet.. so speed was pretty close. Rate of Climb for that condition is a report I haven't seen. Having said that, it was better than the 51B and probably around 4,500 fpm intial climb

The MORE capable XP-51G climbed to 20,000 feet in 3.4 minutes, max speed 495Mph at 25,000 feet and ceiling trial stopped at 46,000 feet (for same reason - pilot restriction for zero pressurization). The only significant difference of note was that a.) it was lighter(no guns/ammo in test) and b.) it used a new R.M 14 S.M. version of the Merlin Mark 100 with a five blade prop - and it had about 2000 Hp at 20,000 feet to the P-51H Merlin 1650-9 with 1900 at Max Hp, with the standard four blade prop. The Mk 100 was in short supply and designing for the Griffon, while at test installation stage, was cancelled.

A P-51B (MkIII) was fitted with same Mk 100 and attained climb rates to achieve 30,000 feet at 9 minutes and 2,100 fpm residual climb at 30,000 feet, top speed of 453mph at 25,000 feet, and ROC of 4160fpm at 14,000 feet. It used 3 and four bladed props with no discernable differences.

The 51G was built in parallel with the H and first flew in August 1944. The first H's were delayed from December Production release to incorporate changes back to the 1650-9 engine, include water injection and a Simmonds Boost controlm unit. The P-51H was first ordered for a quantity of 2500 in April, 1944.

The airframe of the P-51H was the same as the G, weighed 600 pounds more with Gund and ammo and both were 13 inches longer than the B/C/D.

To say the Ta 152H was 'far' superior is stretching the envelope and still begs the question - how far advanced from the August 1944 XP-51G, had the G/H been deemed 'necessary'?? and how much of a production gestation did Ta 152 have? IIRC it also flew the first time in Aug 1944?

Also of note. an 11-1 (or whatever) ratio, air to air, (and grand total) is for the last two months of the war is equivalent to the P-51 air to air ratio which includes about 100+ Me 262s. I won't debate Award to Claim but suspect that USAAF more rigorous, records wise, than Luftwaffe in last 8 months of the war. What I would agree is that the scores of the Ta 152 pilots was over higher average skill pilots than the overall Mustang opponents.

Without looking at the aero characteristics side by side I would speculate climb and speed were the same (Ta 152H and P-51H) , and guess that turn may have been slighly better than the H - with dive being more or less equal.

I have not seen the empty weights or gross weights in any consistency to even get that resolved.

Great airplane but not a quantum leap... not any more than say, a P-51B was to a 190A-8 at 24,000 feet.

 

[drgondog]

Wrong ponsford. No Ta-152 was ever shot down, and that shootdown has nothing to do with Sattler's crash, completly unrelated. Note he claims 1 FW190 destroyed, and mentioned nothing peculiar about the a/c. And there's no mistaking a Ta-152 for a Fw-190, thats for sure!

And Reschke DID shoot down Mitchell, he saw him crash for crying out loud!

Soren, Curiously - how do you Know this? Completeness of German records, interviews with every German pilot that flew one, Inventory counts of a/c delivered, a/c captured? And you know the precise cause of Sattler's crash? and how do you know this?

and No mistaking 'it with an Fw 190D-9 in a high speed 90 degree deflection shot whre you can't see a wing - or even 6 O'clock where you might be a little busy trying to notice the wing span difference??

 

[Soren]

Again the Ta-152H actually saw service in WW2 Bill, the P-51H didn't. Furthermore the Ta-152H was designed developed earlier as-well.

So to say the Ta-152H far superior to any Allied fighter in service is definitely not stretching it.

Now if you want to include the P-51H then keep in mind that the Germans actually already had an a/c in service which was faster, the Fw-190 Dora-13 with a top speed of 777 + km/h at alt and a higher ceiling.

 

[Soren]

Soren, Curiously - how do you Know this? Completeness of German records, interviews with every German pilot that flew one, Inventory counts of a/c delivered, a/c captured? And you know the precise cause of Sattler's crash? and how do you know this?

If in doubt ask Erich, cause he isn't. And it has already been confirmed various times before.

Or are you trying to say that Reschke is a liar Bill ???

and No mistaking 'it with an Fw 190D-9 in a high speed 90 degree deflection shot whre you can't see a wing - or even 6 O'clock where you might be a little busy trying to notice the wing span difference??

The Ta-152 is longer much wider than the Dora-9, they don't look alike. And he wasn't pulling deflection from the very beginning, he already had a good look at the a/c before that.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I can see someone mistaking a Fw 190D for a Ta 152H.

Not saying this is the case, but they are very similiar looking aircraft.

 

[drgondog]

Nope, it wasn't hit by any a/c. And read above, Sattler's aircraft fell to the ground long before the dogfight ever started, and I quote "For no apparent reason!".

Also please don't leave out that Reschke mentions in his own book that while the Tempest was riding on its very edge of performance, being very close to the stall, the Ta-152H was never even close to its limits. It's in the book, Wilde Sau..

Soren, if he was gaining "meter by meter" in the turn, one of three things is clear (we can rule out that Reschke was goofing off and smoking a cig).

1.) he was a better pilot flying an equivalent a/c in that manuever, or
2.) he was flying against a good pilot, with a slightly better better a/c than the Tempest
3.) he was a better pilot, flying an equivalent machine and able to gain a slight edge in the Ta 152.

Which is it?

Prove it?

Back to your 'tutorial' on manuever Performance?

 

[Soren]

Not by a long shot. The much longer wings of the Ta-152 makes it a completely different in a pilot's eyes. Note that even the Dora was mistaken as a another type a/c than the Fw190 when first seen by Allied pilots.

 

[Kruska]

The assertion that the TA152H was the best fighter developed in WW2 once again strikes me as comical..........

I would tend to agree on that

Regards
Kruska

 

[drgondog]

Bada - I have searched for a 'definitive' document regarding the Ta 152H-1 or -2. You mentioned having the manual?

If so can you tell me
a. The Gross Weight Empty.
b. The Gross Weight Full ammo and internal fuel/oil and pilot
c. Limit Load and the weight for Limit Load
d. Top Speed as function of Gross take off weight, maximum boost and altitude.
e. Airfoil
f. Drag Coefficient for wetted area (all Paratsite Drag).

These data have been subject of Extensive debate and questioning.

Thank you.