In order not to clog the other thread with non-topic material, I'll start the ball rolling on the 109F-4. 1st - a re-post from that thread, about comparison between the 109F-4 and Fw 190A-2:
Bf 109F-4 performance thread
- Thread starter tomo pauk
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Clayton Magnet
Staff Sergeant
- 902
- Feb 16, 2013
109G-6 top speeds are almost always quoted as 389mph, which seems to be right in the ballpark with the F-4. Were they really equivalent?
I always assumed that the G-6 was capable of more speed, especially when equipped with the AS engine.
Another example is Japanese aircraft always list low top speeds, while post war tests show the Ki-84 outrunning a P-51 at 20000ft.
I always assumed that the G-6 was capable of more speed, especially when equipped with the AS engine.
Another example is Japanese aircraft always list low top speeds, while post war tests show the Ki-84 outrunning a P-51 at 20000ft.
Clayton Magnet
Staff Sergeant
- 902
- Feb 16, 2013
And certainly the Ki-100 must have been capable of more than 360mph?
GregP
Major
Corsning belongs to a few forums and has an aircraft performance thread going in another one. These data come from Corsning, with some pretty good research.
Here's what he found in Russian testing for the Bf 109 F-1:
Russian graphs 0209/0210 dated September/October 1941 ( Graph 0230 Allied and Soviet Bombers compaired to German fighters):
Altitude.Speed/Climb/-(Speed)
Meters...mph/fpm/-(mph)
S.L........316/3385/-(321)
.1,000...332/3470/-(333)
.2,000...342/3345/-(342)
.3,000...350/3130/-(350)
.4,000...356/2980/-(357)
.5,000...362/2590/-(364)
.6,000...368/2205/-(370)
.7,000...366/1790/-(368)
.8,000...359/1395/-(364)
Feet----------------
.5,000...337/3485
10,000...350/3120
15,000...360/2770
20,000...368/2175
25,000...368/1550
Full throttle/critical altitudes: 368mph./5,950 m. (19,521 ft.) and 3,510fpm./1,430 m. (4,692 ft.)
Ceilings (calculated)
Combat: 29,560ft.
Operational: 35,560ft.
Service: 36,760ft.
Here's what he found for the Bf 109F-1/2 from German testing:
The following information comes from documents included in Bruf=Nr.509 (Brief No.509 ???). Title: Identification For The Airplane Model Bf 109 Series F-1 and F-2 with DB601N Motor. The only date I could find was on the front cover: Berlin 1941.
Engine: DB601N @ 1.30ata boost = ? = 1,175ps (1,159 hp.) Not sure at this time of power output at 1.30 ata. Foot note something about 1.25ata.
Altitude.Speed/Climb
Meters...mph/fpm/minutes to altitude
S.L......307/3149/----
.1,000...349/3149/-1.0
.2,000...332/3149/-2.1
.3,000...344/3149/-3.2
.4,000...356/3149/-4.3
.5,000...368/2715/-5.4
.6,000...369/2204/-6.5
.7,000...367/1692/-8.3
.8,000...360/1259/10.5
.9,000...351/-885/13.7
10,000...325/-492/18.7
11,000...283/-98.4/N.G.
Full throttle height: 369.7mph./5,000 m. (16,400ft.) and 3,149fpm./4,390 m. (14,400ft.)
Ceilings (calculated)
Combat: 28,560ft.
Operational: 32,730ft.
Service: 36,070ft.
Wing Area: 173.3 sq.ft.
Test Weight: 6,015.24 lbs.
Wing Loading: 34.71- lbs./sq.ft.
Power Loading: 5.190 lbs./hp.
Armament: 2 x 7.9mm (upper cowl) + 1 x 20mm (thru spinner)
Turn Time of the Bf 109F-2 at 6,130 lbs.: 19.6 - 20.5 seconds
Here's what he found from German testing of the Bf 109 F-4:
Bf 109F-4 PERFORMANCE December 1941
Information for this model is also from Bruf=No. 509.
The Speed graph figures are estimated:
Altitude.Speed
Meters...mph
S.L......311
.1,000...322
.2,000...334
.3,000...346
.4,000...358
.5,000...369
.6,000...381
.7,000...388
.8,000...386
.9,000...374
10,000...367
Full throttle height: 390mph./6,700m. (21,982ft.)
Range (maximum): 994 mph./254 mph./182 gallons of fuel. (maximum internal fuel: 102 gallons)
From Soviet Combat Aircraft of the Second World War, Vol.1:
Page 124:
By early 1942 the Yak-1 had proved to be the best Soviet fighter with regard to overall performance, but it was still bettered in combat by the Messerschmitt Br 109F. When the Bf 109F-2 was replaced by the 'F-4 with a more powerful, high altitude engine and improved armour and armament, the discrepancy was even more noticeable. In the words of Luftwaffe ace Gerhard Barkhorn, the Bf 109F-4 represented the acme of the type's development. Its superiority over the Yak-1 in climb rate became more impressive, and maneuvrability was of the same order. The 'F-4 also retained its superior speed.
Page 125:
A simulated combat between a Yak-1 M-105PF and a Bf 109F at the NII VVS revealed that the Bf 109F had only marginal superior manoeuvability at 3,300 ft., though the German fighter could gain substantial advantage over the Yak-1 within four or five nose-to-tail turns. At 9,800 ft. the capabilities of both fighters were nearly equal. The supercharger of the Daimler-Benz engine did not provide a nominal boost in these tests....while the NII VVS was testing the earlier Bf 109F-2, the Luftwaffe had converted to the Bf 109F-4 with the more powerful DB601E engine, and this new variant completely outperformed the Yak-1.
Like my own findings, I don't see 400 mph anywhere. I have seen it mentioned along with a blurb about clearing the engine for more power, but nothing else was said about that. If the engine WAS cleared for more power, what was the ata cleared and date? Does anyone have German flight test for the Bf 109F after the engine was cleared for more manifold pressure?
I am absolutely willing to believe it could do 400 mph in level flight. I'm just looking for the flight test data at this point.
Here's what he found in Russian testing for the Bf 109 F-1:
Russian graphs 0209/0210 dated September/October 1941 ( Graph 0230 Allied and Soviet Bombers compaired to German fighters):
Altitude.Speed/Climb/-(Speed)
Meters...mph/fpm/-(mph)
S.L........316/3385/-(321)
.1,000...332/3470/-(333)
.2,000...342/3345/-(342)
.3,000...350/3130/-(350)
.4,000...356/2980/-(357)
.5,000...362/2590/-(364)
.6,000...368/2205/-(370)
.7,000...366/1790/-(368)
.8,000...359/1395/-(364)
Feet----------------
.5,000...337/3485
10,000...350/3120
15,000...360/2770
20,000...368/2175
25,000...368/1550
Full throttle/critical altitudes: 368mph./5,950 m. (19,521 ft.) and 3,510fpm./1,430 m. (4,692 ft.)
Ceilings (calculated)
Combat: 29,560ft.
Operational: 35,560ft.
Service: 36,760ft.
Here's what he found for the Bf 109F-1/2 from German testing:
The following information comes from documents included in Bruf=Nr.509 (Brief No.509 ???). Title: Identification For The Airplane Model Bf 109 Series F-1 and F-2 with DB601N Motor. The only date I could find was on the front cover: Berlin 1941.
Engine: DB601N @ 1.30ata boost = ? = 1,175ps (1,159 hp.) Not sure at this time of power output at 1.30 ata. Foot note something about 1.25ata.
Altitude.Speed/Climb
Meters...mph/fpm/minutes to altitude
S.L......307/3149/----
.1,000...349/3149/-1.0
.2,000...332/3149/-2.1
.3,000...344/3149/-3.2
.4,000...356/3149/-4.3
.5,000...368/2715/-5.4
.6,000...369/2204/-6.5
.7,000...367/1692/-8.3
.8,000...360/1259/10.5
.9,000...351/-885/13.7
10,000...325/-492/18.7
11,000...283/-98.4/N.G.
Full throttle height: 369.7mph./5,000 m. (16,400ft.) and 3,149fpm./4,390 m. (14,400ft.)
Ceilings (calculated)
Combat: 28,560ft.
Operational: 32,730ft.
Service: 36,070ft.
Wing Area: 173.3 sq.ft.
Test Weight: 6,015.24 lbs.
Wing Loading: 34.71- lbs./sq.ft.
Power Loading: 5.190 lbs./hp.
Armament: 2 x 7.9mm (upper cowl) + 1 x 20mm (thru spinner)
Turn Time of the Bf 109F-2 at 6,130 lbs.: 19.6 - 20.5 seconds
Here's what he found from German testing of the Bf 109 F-4:
Bf 109F-4 PERFORMANCE December 1941
Information for this model is also from Bruf=No. 509.
The Speed graph figures are estimated:
Altitude.Speed
Meters...mph
S.L......311
.1,000...322
.2,000...334
.3,000...346
.4,000...358
.5,000...369
.6,000...381
.7,000...388
.8,000...386
.9,000...374
10,000...367
Full throttle height: 390mph./6,700m. (21,982ft.)
Range (maximum): 994 mph./254 mph./182 gallons of fuel. (maximum internal fuel: 102 gallons)
From Soviet Combat Aircraft of the Second World War, Vol.1:
Page 124:
By early 1942 the Yak-1 had proved to be the best Soviet fighter with regard to overall performance, but it was still bettered in combat by the Messerschmitt Br 109F. When the Bf 109F-2 was replaced by the 'F-4 with a more powerful, high altitude engine and improved armour and armament, the discrepancy was even more noticeable. In the words of Luftwaffe ace Gerhard Barkhorn, the Bf 109F-4 represented the acme of the type's development. Its superiority over the Yak-1 in climb rate became more impressive, and maneuvrability was of the same order. The 'F-4 also retained its superior speed.
Page 125:
A simulated combat between a Yak-1 M-105PF and a Bf 109F at the NII VVS revealed that the Bf 109F had only marginal superior manoeuvability at 3,300 ft., though the German fighter could gain substantial advantage over the Yak-1 within four or five nose-to-tail turns. At 9,800 ft. the capabilities of both fighters were nearly equal. The supercharger of the Daimler-Benz engine did not provide a nominal boost in these tests....while the NII VVS was testing the earlier Bf 109F-2, the Luftwaffe had converted to the Bf 109F-4 with the more powerful DB601E engine, and this new variant completely outperformed the Yak-1.
Like my own findings, I don't see 400 mph anywhere. I have seen it mentioned along with a blurb about clearing the engine for more power, but nothing else was said about that. If the engine WAS cleared for more power, what was the ata cleared and date? Does anyone have German flight test for the Bf 109F after the engine was cleared for more manifold pressure?
I am absolutely willing to believe it could do 400 mph in level flight. I'm just looking for the flight test data at this point.
Last edited:
There were some early issues with maximum boost on early Bf109Fs and Gs that meant both got faster later in use, so comparing performance data means you have to look at what point in time that performance was available to frontline units. I'm also wary of captured aircraft test figures as they were usually testing crashed aircraft that had been rebuilt, and it is suspected the Russians often did not use the right fuel when testing German fighters. On 22nd February 1942 Oberleutnant Niss, of 8./JG51 was forced to land his Bf 109 F-2, WNr. 9209, within Soviet positions - it was that DB601N-engined F that was tested by the Soviet's Air Forces Scientific Research Institute. The DB601N needed high-octane C3 fuel which the Soviets simply didn't have, so that probably makes their test figures pessimistic. The RAF were just as guilty of such mistakes, originally issuing some low performance figures for Armin Faber's captured FW190A-3 because they didn't service the sparkplugs properly. I prefer to use German data for German aircraft if I can as the Germans knew how to get the best out of their own designs.
IIRC, German test data for the early F-2 was that it topped out at 384mph with the DB601N. The F-4 switched to the more powerful DB601E, and full boost for the DB601E was cleared for operational use in February 1942, but at that time most frontline units were still flying slower F-2s. The FW190 didn't make an appearance on the Eastern Front until September 1942, by which time the DB605-engiend Bf109G was replacing the F on the frontline. Before February 1942 the F-4 was restricted to 394mph at about 22,000ft, but a clean (no underwing gondolas, no Trop filters, no belly tank fittings) F-4 could hit 410mph after the boost restriction was removed. Note, this was time-limited WEP and not at a combat weight, and at 22,000ft they were unlikely to be meeting many Soviet aircraft, so the real benefit of the extra boost was probably more in improved climb performance for "boom'n'zoom" tactics rather than 400+mph horizontal speed.
What I do recall reading is that the Russians actually considered the Bf109 in both F and G models as a bigger threat than the FW190, which is strange given most Luftwaffe Experten seem to have preferred the FW190.
IIRC, German test data for the early F-2 was that it topped out at 384mph with the DB601N. The F-4 switched to the more powerful DB601E, and full boost for the DB601E was cleared for operational use in February 1942, but at that time most frontline units were still flying slower F-2s. The FW190 didn't make an appearance on the Eastern Front until September 1942, by which time the DB605-engiend Bf109G was replacing the F on the frontline. Before February 1942 the F-4 was restricted to 394mph at about 22,000ft, but a clean (no underwing gondolas, no Trop filters, no belly tank fittings) F-4 could hit 410mph after the boost restriction was removed. Note, this was time-limited WEP and not at a combat weight, and at 22,000ft they were unlikely to be meeting many Soviet aircraft, so the real benefit of the extra boost was probably more in improved climb performance for "boom'n'zoom" tactics rather than 400+mph horizontal speed.
What I do recall reading is that the Russians actually considered the Bf109 in both F and G models as a bigger threat than the FW190, which is strange given most Luftwaffe Experten seem to have preferred the FW190.
- Thread starter
- #6
Perhaps it might be a good idea to keep the discussion here as closely related to the Bf 109F-4 as possible
What was the engine power used for the speed?
The engine was cleared for 2700 rpm and 1.42 ata at some time December 1941, that power setting was used in the comparison test vs. the Fw 190A-2. I provided the link for the speed graph of the F-4 in other thread, here it is claimed that it can do 670 km/h, here it comes again: link.
GregP
Major
Hi Tomo,
Saw the link, but "WTS Koblenz" as a source doesn't take me anywhere for flight test data. At this time, it is an admittedly interesting chart that I cannot take seriously yet since I don't know where it came from. Still, you aren't in the habit of posting bogus data, so I know it comes from somewhere you consider to be reliable.
But it's the only place I've ever seen someone credit the Bf 19F with 670 kph, and it has little credibility as yet for me. I will not dismiss it, though, and am not arguing other than to post data showing a considerably slower top speed for the mark with report numbers in the text quoted from Corsning. I haven't known you to chase windmills where data is concerned, so I will pursue it as I get time.
Meanwhile, I'll follow this thread with interest.
You may be right and, if so, I'm sure it will surface with suitable official markings.
Saw the link, but "WTS Koblenz" as a source doesn't take me anywhere for flight test data. At this time, it is an admittedly interesting chart that I cannot take seriously yet since I don't know where it came from. Still, you aren't in the habit of posting bogus data, so I know it comes from somewhere you consider to be reliable.
But it's the only place I've ever seen someone credit the Bf 19F with 670 kph, and it has little credibility as yet for me. I will not dismiss it, though, and am not arguing other than to post data showing a considerably slower top speed for the mark with report numbers in the text quoted from Corsning. I haven't known you to chase windmills where data is concerned, so I will pursue it as I get time.
Meanwhile, I'll follow this thread with interest.
You may be right and, if so, I'm sure it will surface with suitable official markings.
- Thread starter
- #8
Another doc where we can read the Vmax = 670 km/h figure for the F-4 is here. Rated alttude is listed as H = 6.3 km, power used Nvmax = 1290 PS (= Notleistung) . Compared with 635 km/h at 6 km, using 1185 PS (= Kamp, as noted by the another doc.
WTS Koblenz is a military-history museum/institute. Wiki page: link.
WTS Koblenz is a military-history museum/institute. Wiki page: link.
These documents are readily available. Even Kurfurst has them.
Some people just don't want to find them.
Hello
I don't know why we should have more faith in calculations of Messerschmitt AG than Milch, who often openly questioned them and sometimes ordered Focke-Wulf AG to check them. Also why would F-4 be 20 km/h faster than G-2, which was aerodynamically very similar even if somewhat heavier but had more powerful engine with higher FTH?
Juha
I don't know why we should have more faith in calculations of Messerschmitt AG than Milch, who often openly questioned them and sometimes ordered Focke-Wulf AG to check them. Also why would F-4 be 20 km/h faster than G-2, which was aerodynamically very similar even if somewhat heavier but had more powerful engine with higher FTH?
Juha
GregP
Major
The documents I quoted above are also available to anyone. They just don't agree. That's why I'm trying to figure out what is correct.
Well would you accept US or British manufacture and test documents for American or British aircraft?
Simple, yes or no.
- Thread starter
- #13
Focke Wulf also had the habit to report greater speed of the Fw 190 than it was so. Eg. the claim, stated at the manual for the Fw 190A-2, A-3 and A-4 (Teil 0, ie. introduction) for the top speed of 676 km/h, without even making a distinction between the BMW 801C- and 801D-powered machines.
I'm also curious when the testers at Rechlin and other places started calculating compressibility effect ('kompressibilitaet der Luft'), that alone will subtract max of 15 km/h (almost 10 mp/h) from the top speed at this graph: link.
Or, this table (link) where we can see the figures in the brackets, that are not corrected for compressibility: a ~15 mph/24 km/h difference at max speed at 6.3 km.
Curiously enough, we see the British and Soviet figures for the Fw 190A-3/A-4 as low at 375 mph (ie. slower than 380-390 mp/h speed figures for the F-4 by the Allies), and plenty of graphs at internet where people put the Fw 190A-3 at 680 km/h (420 mp/h) claiming it is based on the Fw data.
Could you please post the horsepower figures for the speeds attained?
GregP
Major
It isn't a yes or no answer, or all that simple.
I believe that American or British tests were reported fairly. If they differ significantly from one another, then there is a good reason, which the researcher must try to find. The reason is always there, but it isn't always recorded.
I started looking at WWII fighters in the 1950s. I have books that were published back then. The Bf 109F variant wasn't shown as that fast until the late 1970s mid-1980s, and the references were always vague, just reported as a speed. It would appear to me that the widely-reported lower numbers were for the original tests that were, in fact, in the 385 mph range.
It appears now that, at some date, more manifold pressure was approved for the DB, just as it was for U.S. and British engines. The faster numbers would appear, on the surface, to be the results of that higher manifold pressure. But they don't exactly agree. I've seen 410 mph and 416 mph. In my mind, the difference between 410 mph and 416 mph is within individual airframe differences, and I'm willing to let that slide.
It seems like the Bf 109F was slightly above 400 mph in level flight after the increase in manifold pressure. We don't seem to know when that happened, or even if it really did. So far, it's a claim, and I haven't seen documents that say whether they are calculated or flight test data; just data tabulations. I'm open to the increase in speed, but want to know when it happened IN THE FIELD, and still want to see flight test data confirming it, with dates and test conditions. The purpose in that is to confirm that the aircraft tested was a production Bf 109F and not a test mule, as the Germans were very fond of at the time.
They passed off the He 100D as a production aircraft, and told the world that Me 209R was a standard fighter, too. So, my trust in the data isn't as doubtful as whether or not the aircraft tested was a production model. I have little doubt they tested something at that speed, but whether or not it was a combat-ready Bf 109F I can't say. At least in the U.S.A and the UK, you can find flight tests where a service aircraft was requisitioned and tested as it came from the unit, after being serviced.
Like I said above, it's worth looking into. Meanwhile, the performance numbers I believe are the ones published for 25+ years after the war, before someone dug up a memo talking about possible manifold pressure increases that still haven't been verified as used in the field at some time.
I believe that American or British tests were reported fairly. If they differ significantly from one another, then there is a good reason, which the researcher must try to find. The reason is always there, but it isn't always recorded.
I started looking at WWII fighters in the 1950s. I have books that were published back then. The Bf 109F variant wasn't shown as that fast until the late 1970s mid-1980s, and the references were always vague, just reported as a speed. It would appear to me that the widely-reported lower numbers were for the original tests that were, in fact, in the 385 mph range.
It appears now that, at some date, more manifold pressure was approved for the DB, just as it was for U.S. and British engines. The faster numbers would appear, on the surface, to be the results of that higher manifold pressure. But they don't exactly agree. I've seen 410 mph and 416 mph. In my mind, the difference between 410 mph and 416 mph is within individual airframe differences, and I'm willing to let that slide.
It seems like the Bf 109F was slightly above 400 mph in level flight after the increase in manifold pressure. We don't seem to know when that happened, or even if it really did. So far, it's a claim, and I haven't seen documents that say whether they are calculated or flight test data; just data tabulations. I'm open to the increase in speed, but want to know when it happened IN THE FIELD, and still want to see flight test data confirming it, with dates and test conditions. The purpose in that is to confirm that the aircraft tested was a production Bf 109F and not a test mule, as the Germans were very fond of at the time.
They passed off the He 100D as a production aircraft, and told the world that Me 209R was a standard fighter, too. So, my trust in the data isn't as doubtful as whether or not the aircraft tested was a production model. I have little doubt they tested something at that speed, but whether or not it was a combat-ready Bf 109F I can't say. At least in the U.S.A and the UK, you can find flight tests where a service aircraft was requisitioned and tested as it came from the unit, after being serviced.
Like I said above, it's worth looking into. Meanwhile, the performance numbers I believe are the ones published for 25+ years after the war, before someone dug up a memo talking about possible manifold pressure increases that still haven't been verified as used in the field at some time.
I'll respond in more detail after work, but essentially you are cherry picking data to support your preconcieved notions and beliefs. There is 0 reason to not believe Messerschmitt's data that has not changed since 1942 (as I said, more later on this).
That is not a knock on you at all, WE all do it ...
GregP
Major
I might agree except I have no preconceived opinions and believe thew Bf 109 to be much better, in general, than it is credited for. I'm just looking for something that tells me the airframe is standard and the data is believable for a production aircraft. I have no notion it is WRONG.
Hello Tomo
Finnish performance test for Bf 109 G-2 produced 523 km/h at sea level and 652 km/h at the FTH without the compressibility correction but 522 km/h and 636 km/h with it. I don't believe that it is a mere chance that the speeds without the compressibility correction are exactly same as the speeds Germans got for a Bf 109 G-2/R2.
But did the British make compressibility correction to their figures?
Juha
Finnish performance test for Bf 109 G-2 produced 523 km/h at sea level and 652 km/h at the FTH without the compressibility correction but 522 km/h and 636 km/h with it. I don't believe that it is a mere chance that the speeds without the compressibility correction are exactly same as the speeds Germans got for a Bf 109 G-2/R2.
But did the British make compressibility correction to their figures?
Juha
- Thread starter
- #18
Not negligible - 13 km/h, circa 8 mp/h.
Looks like they did, as early as in April of 1941 (test report for the Spit Mk.V; correction due to copressibility is almost 6 mph at 20800 ft and 375 mph), at least for their A/C. I'll see whether/when it was accounted for for the captured A/C.
edit: even in May 1940 for the Spit II compressibility was accounted for.
Here is the thing Greg, you keep saying you don't accept actual data sheets from the manufacturer and the Luftwaffe, but that US and British are okay because they are "fair reporting". They are reported no differently. Whether the aircraft is British, American, German, Japanese, Italian, etc., they are reporting "best case", and the tests are conducted during best case conditions. None of these figures will ever be obtained in a combat ready and loaded aircraft and conditions. I think we can both agree on this, therefore Messerschmitts Data sheets are all you should accept and go off of.
The German data has been the same since 1942. It was already there when you began studying aircraft in the 1950s. It is nothing new. It is not someone presenting it try and show the aircraft in a better light. So, yes YOU do have a preconceived notion. As I said we all do however. That is not a knock on you.
As for your sources, and your claims that certain ones cherry pick data. Sorry Greg, but they all do the same things. Every single source out there picks and chooses it's data in order to prove or show what it wants. That is why I am up in arms with you here. You call out others for doing that, yet you are doing the same thing. Choosing to ignore actual German data, saying it is less accurate than data presented by the allies that never tested the aircraft under the same conditions.
NO data for any aircraft from any manufacturer is from a production aircraft. They are TEST Aircraft.
I will drop it further from here. We both have seen the data, we both have our preconceived notions.
CORSNING
Tech Sergeant
Thank you gentlemen, very good input all around. Thank you Tomo
for posting all the site information.
Thank you Greg for posting from
the AIRCRAFT PERFORMANCE section of WARBIRDS.
It is no secret that I am on a constant quest for more performance
information when it comes to WW2 fighters. I wish to start by saying
I am in no way, shape or form an expert on the Bf.109, so I research
others material. Looking at the document of the Bf.109F-4 from Beim-
zeugmeister is very interesting. I have this document in my files but
never gave it the due it deserves until now.
First of all I would like to point out that the document is dated
3 February 1943. The Bf.109F-4 entered operational service in December
1941. At that time the DB601E was cleared for 1.3 ata. boosting. In
January 1942 the DB601E was cleared for 1.42 ata. boosting at low and
medium altitudes up to about 5,500 m...?, and 1.3 ata. at altitudes above
this. Full throttle height would still have been 6,000 - 6,700 m. and maximum
all out speed would have been 390-394.5 mph. in clean condition.
The 670 km/h (416 mph.)/6,300 m. (20,700 ft.) at 2,890 kg. (6,372 lbs.)
listed on this document using 1,290 PS (1,272 hp.) would have to be at
at least 1.42 ata. My question would be then, was the DB601E cleared
for that amount of boost during its military lifetime at that altitude, and when
was it cleared? Also keep in mind that the DB605A was introduced in the
Bf.109G-1 in May 1942 with a clearance of 1.42 ata. boosting. It is very
interesting to note that the emergency power of 1.42 for the DB505A was
banned in June, July, October of 1942 and then again in June and October
of 1943. It was banned once again in February 1944. In the time of each
ban emergency power fell to 1.3 ata. My only point here is that the boosting
of the DB601E for the full length of its life may have varied also and any
boosting that allowed it to reach or exceed 400 mph. may have been
fleeting.
Then there is the possible other side of the story; The P-51D entered service
in June 1944. The only complete test trial I have seen on this model comes
from wwiiaircraftperformance dated 15 June 1945. Maximum speed listed is
442 mph. with one external bomb (fuel tank) rack on each wing. These racks
slowed the P-51D-15 by 6 mph. These figures would have been at 67"Hg boosting.
The P-51D is classically listed at 437 mph. maximum speed at 24,500 ft. because
of a UK data sheet dated 24 July 1944.
The V-1650-3 and-7 of the P-51 B/C/D were cleared for 72-75 inches somewhere
in June 1944. The V-1650-7 was cleared for +25 psi. (80+"Hg.). by the UK soon
after.
The whole purpose of my posts is to show that the Bf.109F-4 flying at 400 mph.
is completely possible. At this time I am going to have to say it was not common
place or a normally expected figure, and if it was it was probably after its time in
the sun with the introduction of the DB605 engine.
for posting all the site information.
Thank you Greg for posting fromthe AIRCRAFT PERFORMANCE section of WARBIRDS.
It is no secret that I am on a constant quest for more performance
information when it comes to WW2 fighters. I wish to start by saying
I am in no way, shape or form an expert on the Bf.109, so I research
others material. Looking at the document of the Bf.109F-4 from Beim-
zeugmeister is very interesting. I have this document in my files but
never gave it the due it deserves until now.
First of all I would like to point out that the document is dated
3 February 1943. The Bf.109F-4 entered operational service in December
1941. At that time the DB601E was cleared for 1.3 ata. boosting. In
January 1942 the DB601E was cleared for 1.42 ata. boosting at low and
medium altitudes up to about 5,500 m...?, and 1.3 ata. at altitudes above
this. Full throttle height would still have been 6,000 - 6,700 m. and maximum
all out speed would have been 390-394.5 mph. in clean condition.
The 670 km/h (416 mph.)/6,300 m. (20,700 ft.) at 2,890 kg. (6,372 lbs.)
listed on this document using 1,290 PS (1,272 hp.) would have to be at
at least 1.42 ata. My question would be then, was the DB601E cleared
for that amount of boost during its military lifetime at that altitude, and when
was it cleared? Also keep in mind that the DB605A was introduced in the
Bf.109G-1 in May 1942 with a clearance of 1.42 ata. boosting. It is very
interesting to note that the emergency power of 1.42 for the DB505A was
banned in June, July, October of 1942 and then again in June and October
of 1943. It was banned once again in February 1944. In the time of each
ban emergency power fell to 1.3 ata. My only point here is that the boosting
of the DB601E for the full length of its life may have varied also and any
boosting that allowed it to reach or exceed 400 mph. may have been
fleeting.
Then there is the possible other side of the story; The P-51D entered service
in June 1944. The only complete test trial I have seen on this model comes
from wwiiaircraftperformance dated 15 June 1945. Maximum speed listed is
442 mph. with one external bomb (fuel tank) rack on each wing. These racks
slowed the P-51D-15 by 6 mph. These figures would have been at 67"Hg boosting.
The P-51D is classically listed at 437 mph. maximum speed at 24,500 ft. because
of a UK data sheet dated 24 July 1944.
The V-1650-3 and-7 of the P-51 B/C/D were cleared for 72-75 inches somewhere
in June 1944. The V-1650-7 was cleared for +25 psi. (80+"Hg.). by the UK soon
after.
The whole purpose of my posts is to show that the Bf.109F-4 flying at 400 mph.
is completely possible. At this time I am going to have to say it was not common
place or a normally expected figure, and if it was it was probably after its time in
the sun with the introduction of the DB605 engine.
