Bf 109G-2 or G-4 Heinz "Wimmersal" Sachsenberg

[le_steph40]

Hello,
Need opinion regarding this aircraft

Do you know the wk.nr. of this aircraft ? Bf 109G-2 or Bf 109G-4 ?
I would like an information regarding this Bf 109G flown by H. Sachsenberg during Spring 1943 in 6./JG52. Some sources say that it's a Bf 109G-4 and others sources say it's a G-2. On the
photos of this aircraft I can't see the wing bumps and there isn't ventilation air scoop on the left side under the windscreen (like a G-2)... Antenna wire not visible on the pictures. At this time, both G-2 and G-4 were in II./JG52.
I know that Sachsenberg made an emergency landing 6 km NE of Anapa in Bf 109G-4 WNr.14956 on 5.May 1943 after engine damage during aerial combat and on 22.July he made another emergency landing after combat, this time in Bf 109G-4 WNr.19236.
Thank you for your help.
Steph

 

[le_steph40]

My investigations...
It could be an early G-4 (wk.nr.14851-15000), it seems that this block was made like "common" G-2 except antenna wire: no wing bumps and no ventilation air scoop on the left side under the windscreen. I noted that some late G-2 had the wing bumps...
Anybody to confirm ? Wurger, Stona ? Other "experten" ?

 

[stona]

I don't disagree with you

From the Werknummer range you are looking at you are trying to tell whether this was a late G-2 or early G-4 from Wiener Neustadt. I think that the features you are discussing (cockpit ventilation, upper wing bulges for the larger 660/150 main wheels and the alteration in undercarriage geometry) are not so definitive between such closely related aircraft. We know that late G-2s got the bigger wheels and some early G-4s got the smaller ones for example. I've never been sure about the ventilation inlets. They disappeared fairly early in G-2 production as far as I can tell.
The G-4 was supposed to have the FuG 16Z radio installation and the different position of the antenna lead into the fuselage might be your best clue, if you can find an image on which it is visible.

If I had to bet, I'd put my money on the aircraft in your picture being a G-2, but I'm not a betting man !

I will try to have a look for images of Sachsenberg's Bf 109s when I have a chance.

Cheers

Steve

 

[le_steph40]

I don't disagree with you

From the Werknummer range you are looking at you are trying to tell whether this was a late G-2 or early G-4 from Wiener Neustadt. I think that the features you are discussing (cockpit ventilation, upper wing bulges for the larger 660/150 main wheels and the alteration in undercarriage geometry) are not so definitive between such closely related aircraft. We know that late G-2s got the bigger wheels and some early G-4s got the smaller ones for example. I've never been sure about the ventilation inlets. They disappeared fairly early in G-2 production as far as I can tell.
The G-4 was supposed to have the FuG 16Z radio installation and the different position of the antenna lead into the fuselage might be your best clue, if you can find an image on which it is visible.

If I had to bet, I'd put my money on the aircraft in your picture being a G-2, but I'm not a betting man !

I will try to have a look for images of Sachsenberg's Bf 109s when I have a chance.

Cheers

Steve

I agree with you
My 2 euros cents opinion, I think if it was a G-2, we could see the small white insulator on the fuselage upper the fuselage cross, don't you think ?
Regards
Steph

 

[le_steph40]

Hello,
I found this photo in my books...

 

[stona]

I'm not sure what tail wheel that is. You think it is the smaller (290/110) rather than the larger (350/135)? I think either is possible in that production block as the type changeover occurred. Conversely the larger wheel was retrofitted to G-2s.

That might be the insulator, or it might not. It does look to be in the right place

Cheers

Steve

 

[le_steph40]

May be the larger: 350/135.
To add at the confusion...
Here is another photo of an aircraft of the same unit at the same period... Comment says: Bf 109G-4 flown by Lt Nikolaus Jeschonnek of 6./JG52

Info about tail wheel on page 20
http://books.google.fr/books?id=P_6dpH1VETkC&pg=PA20&lpg=PA20&dq=bf+109G-4+tail+wheel&source=bl&ots=tPXASscfZp&sig=2K-wydijD13fkbklUMFrEJ2ntYo&hl=fr&sa=X&ei=RoeRU-yDPeSj0QW2p4Fo&ved=0CF0Q6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=bf%20109G-4%20tail%20wheel&f=false

Another little question: what is the color of the rudder on these 2 aircrafts ?

 

[stona]

That one looks like the smaller wheel. It just looks like it would fit into the recess and hence retract (doesn't mean it did though!). Everything else looks like a G-4 standard, so I'd agree with the caption.
The real problem is trying to distinguish between two very similar types by external features like wheels and ventilation flaps when we know these were not consistent to one type, particularly in transition periods. For example, whichever tail wheel was available would have been fitted to a G-2/G-4 as it moved along the line at Wiener Neustadt.
In my opinion (which is all it is) the updated radio would make one of these aircraft a G-4. Only the werknummer or data plate would give a definitive answer.
Cheers
Steve

 

[Crimea_River]

Re post 5, I think pointing to that possible insulator location is a bit of a stretch. There is an equally dark patch over the top left part of the Balkenkreuz.

 

[daHeld]

This photograph was taken in the spring or early summer of 1943 at Anapa.
At that point, only I./JG 52 still flew G-2s, according to the monthly strenght reports.
Thus, this 6./JG 52 machine was definitely a WNF-built G-4.

 

[Denniss]

This photograph was taken in the spring or early summer of 1943 at Anapa.
At that point, only I./JG 52 still flew G-2s, according to the monthly strenght reports.
Thus, this 6./JG 52 was definitely a WNF-built G-4.

Their last 5 G-2s were sent away in 6/43

Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen, II./JG52

 

[daHeld]

Their last 5 G-2s were sent away in 6/43

Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen, II./JG52

Interesting table, thanks for posting.
They also had a full complement of G-4s, so it would be possible, they did not fly their G-2s anymore, depending on how used up they were.
In April 1943, the first half complement of G-4s were delivered, in May, there were only 8 G-2 left on register.
So depending on the time that photograph was taken, it becomes ever more likely to be a G-4.
Especially considering they got the new FuG 16s that were incompatible with the older FuG VIIa of the G-2, making it even less likely they would have flown them after they got enough of the G-4s.