BF-109Z Concept in 1935

Akuma · May 28, 2021

The Messerschmitt company was asked by the C-Amt (technical department of the Luftwaffe) in 1934 to design a Strategic Fighter. What if one of Willi Messerschmitt's engineers had come up with the idea of attaching to Bf-109s together as a simpler and less costly way of creating such an aircraft? Would working on this, in 1935/36 instead of late 1942, been a better alternative than the Bf-110?

GrauGeist · May 28, 2021

Since the Bf109 prototype didn't first fly until 1935, it would be difficult to imagine such an advanced variant out of an aircraft they had little "hands-on" experience with and only existed in mock-up and prototype form.

tomo pauk · May 28, 2021

Apart from an easy switch back and forth with production of either 'normal' 109s or the twin-fuselage types, the 109Z is/was a much smaller aircraft than the 110 (wing area was in the ballpark with what Whrilwind or Hurricane had) so the speed will be much better on the twinned 109. Weight should be also down by a great deal.
The twinned 109s will need an increase in internal fuel by ~50%, or/and early application of drop tanks in order to be as rangy as the early 110s. Firepower also needs to be up, I'd suggest 12 MG17s in total for 1939/40.

Akuma · May 28, 2021

GrauGeist said:
Since the Bf109 prototype didn't first fly until 1935, it would be difficult to imagine such an advanced variant out of an aircraft they had little "hands-on" experience with and only existed in mock-up and prototype form.

Perfectly true but the point is that the C-Amt approached Messerschmitt with the proposal that led to the 110 either at the same time that the 109 was being tested or just after they had decided to adopt the 109.

Akuma · May 28, 2021

tomo pauk said:
Apart from an easy switch back and forth with production of either 'normal' 109s or the twin-fuselage types, the 109Z is/was a much smaller aircraft than the 110 (wing area was in the ballpark with what Whrilwind or Hurricane had) so the speed will be much better on the twinned 109. Weight should be also down by a great deal.
The twinned 109s will need an increase in internal fuel by ~50%, or/and early application of drop tanks in order to be as rangy as the early 110s. Firepower also needs to be up, I'd suggest 12 MG17s in total for 1939/40.

It appears that Messerschmitt solved the problem of extra fuel by removing the cockpit from the second (Starboard) fuselage and installing an oversized fuel cell in that area. Also another cannon, firing between the propellors, was installed in the wing connecting the two fuselages together.

tomo pauk · May 29, 2021

Akuma said:
It appears that Messerschmitt solved the problem of extra fuel by removing the cockpit from the second (Starboard) fuselage and installing an oversized fuel cell in that area. Also another cannon, firing between the propellors, was installed in the wing connecting the two fuselages together.

Yes, that was the case with historical 109Z.
Me - I'd keep the second cockpit as-is (solves the blind spot problem, new pilot has hands-on training, can watch the 6 o'clock while the 'main' pilot is chasing the target, can use a more complicated/better/bigger radio for co-ordination with bomber stream, can bring the aircraft back even if another pilot is killed/injured, no asymmetrical fuel load...), and have the plumbing and racks for the drop tanks attached to cater for increased range.
German cannons in 1939-40 have had small ammo supply - 60 rd drums - so opting for 12 LMGs total and no cannons solves the problem of firing duration while hundreds of miles from home, and still providing the respectable firepower. Granted, by early 1941 the cannons' ammo situation improves with belt-fed MG 151 available.

Shortround6 · May 29, 2021

Akuma said:
Would working on this, in 1935/36 instead of late 1942, been a better alternative than the Bf-110?

The 109 didn't get the DB 601 engine until 1938.
The early Bf 110 used the 700hp(roughly) Jumo 210s until some sort of DB engine became available, but still carried a considerable quantity of fuel, one source says 1270 liters.
The 109E carried about 400 liters of fuel, the Jumo powered versions carried 240-270 liters?

As far as the crew goes, you not only need the long range radio, you need space for the Navigator to spread out maps/charts.

The 110 was designed to hold three men in the cockpit, if needed, for certain roles. Which means the 109Z-early can't do some of the desired roles.

tomo pauk · May 30, 2021

Shortround6 said:
The early Bf 110 used the 700hp(roughly) Jumo 210s until some sort of DB engine became available, but still carried a considerable quantity of fuel, one source says 1270 liters.

1279 liters on the Bf 110B (927 kg / 0.76):

Our brave new 109 twin will need to up the fuel to be able to cover distances the 110 was making.

Akuma · May 30, 2021

Shortround6 said:
The 109 didn't get the DB 601 engine until 1938.
The early Bf 110 used the 700hp(roughly) Jumo 210s until some sort of DB engine became available, but still carried a considerable quantity of fuel, one source says 1270 liters.
The 109E carried about 400 liters of fuel, the Jumo powered versions carried 240-270 liters?

As far as the crew goes, you not only need the long range radio, you need space for the Navigator to spread out maps/charts.

The 110 was designed to hold three men in the cockpit, if needed, for certain roles. Which means the 109Z-early can't do some of the desired roles.

Just wondering, what roles was the early Bf-110 designed for that the 109e couldn't do?
Additional: Just did some quick checking and came across the following fuel figures (Approx.) Bf-110C-4 1273 liters, Bf-109F-1 400 liters. If the 109Z put in a standard fuel tank the capacity doubles to 800 liters. If the designers take advantage of the extra space left by removing the cockpit, control panel, etc. They have more than enough room to double the single tank amount which leaves a grand total of 1200 liters for the Z. In order to maintain weight and balance (CG) the pilot would probably use the bigger tank until fuel volumes equalized. It's clear from this simple projection that there is quite a lot to designing any aircraft.

BF-109Z Concept in 1935

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