Bomber Formations

[buffnut453]

'Tis a tad confusing, isn't it. I wish you every success in your quest having battled through vague and contradictory "facts" for a masters dissertation. I'm now, like you, struggling to find out what happened to a relative of mine, albeit Army rather than RAF, who went ashore on D-Day, was captured in Holland (while assigned to a different Regiment) in October 1944 and was flown back to the UK on 10 April 1945 only to die of malnutrition the following day. Unfortuantely, there's no record of him being assigned to a PoW camp. I'm trying to determine what happened during the time he was a PoW, and discover how he came to be flown back to the UK on 10 April 1945 when most PoW repatriations didn't start until 19 April.

Like I said, I wish you every success.

 

[Erich]

Lwolf

from personal research on I./JG 301 which was flying Bf 109G-6's on this date and one personality scored 2 Lancasters when he flew with 1st staffel. NJg 6 Bf 110's were flying around too much as the RAF was slow to get over the target with many Bf 110's running out of fuel and the crew3s bailing out.

further study involves Dr. Theo Boiten's volume 1 Nachtjagd War Diaries in which he tries to give a break down of the RAF losses this night and the possibility of whom shot down whom. of course not all Allied losses can be attributed in entirety.

AS to LW noting if collisions were made at night, that data I do not possess unless it was recorded somehow privately in other LW pilots logbook(s), at present I am have no further clues.

As to the eye witness from the ground on a dark eve from so much lower in altitude I would hold the report suspect.

E ~

 

[LadyWolf]

Buffnut,
It seems the more I search the more confusing the last moments of their lives become...
All I know about Holland in WWII is that Canada had a part to play in their freedom. I use to live beside a lady who remembers them coming to their village etc. Her family moved to Canada and thats how I met her.

Erich,
I really need to get a hold of Boiten's books. I've had a look via the local libraries computer etc. but none to be found. I am assuming if I asked they may be able to obtain them from another part of the country? Perhaps if I go direct to a military college they may be able to help in getting one. Thats what I did for the book on the 408 squadron history.

As for the eye witness report, I do hold it suspect... thus why I really want to find a person who was in the sky that night and see what they have to say. Granted doing that is not very easy if even possible at this stage in the game. Two steps forward, one step back.

 

[Erich]

Patience and more patience is key ...........

Boiten's books are specific but they should be out and about. Amazon has them of course for one.

 

[buffnut453]

It seems the more I search the more confusing the last moments of their lives become...

Two steps forward, one step back.

Yes, conflicting accounts can be very bothersome. I did some research into air battles in Malaya during December 1941 and it was a most confusing situation made worse by only partial--or non-existent--records on both sides.

Just keep in mind that two forward and one back still counts as movement in the right direction.

 

[FlexiBull]

Seems it was a very busy night, RAF History

15/16 March 1944

863 aircraft - 617 Lancasters, 230 Halifaxes, 16 Mosquitos - ordered to attack Stuttgart. The German fighter controller split his forces into 2 parts. The bomber force flew over France nearly as far as the Swiss frontier before turning north-east to approach Stuttgart. This delayed the German fighters contacting the bomber stream but, when the German fighters did arrive, just before the target was reached, the usual fierce combats ensued. 37 aircraft - 27 Lancasters, 10 Halifaxes - were lost, 4.3 per cent of the force. 2 of the Lancasters force-landed in Switzerland. Adverse winds delayed the opening of the attack and the same winds may have been the cause of the Pathfinder marking falling back well short of the target, despite the clear weather conditions. Some of the early bombing fell in the centre of Stuttgart but most of it fell in open country south-west of the city. The Akademie was damaged in the centre of Stuttgart and some housing was destroyed in the south-western suburbs.

140 aircraft - 94 Halifaxes, 38 Stirlings, 8 Mosquitos - attacked railway yards at Amiens. 2 Halifaxes and 1 Stirling lost.

22 Lancasters of No 5 Group to an aero-engine factory at Woippy, near Metz. 10/10ths cloud caused the attack to be abandoned before any bombs were dropped. No aircraft lost.

17 Mosquitos to 5 German targets and 10 Mosquitos to airfields in Holland, 2 RCM sorties, 11 Serrate patrols, 2 Stirlings minelaying off Texel, 31 aircraft on Resistance operations, 18 OTU sorties. 1 Serrate Mosquito lost.

Total effort for the night: 1,116 sorties, 41 aircraft (3.7 per cent) lost. The number of sorties flown on this night was a new record.

It is very hard to question an eye witness to an event, but at 20,000' (that nearly 4miles away) at night, I begin to wonder if an eye witness could see that much detail.

Does anyone have the weather reports for that night?

From this source http://www.lancaster-archive.com/lanc_losses mar44.pdf

ME558 shot down
LL637 shot down
LL852 FTR - failed to return.

Now here is the map.

Facts don't add up for a mid air collision involving three aircraft.

I assume the bomber stream was heading north to Stutgart.
How can ME558 which we believe to have been shot down, then collide with two other aircraft both heading in roughly the same direction one crashes 6.5km to the north (possible) and the other crashes 25 km TO THE SOUTH. (doubtful).
Yes aircraft can fly on after a collision but you might have expected some crew from LL852 to have bailed out during the 25km flight.

Does this help? Maybe check Luftwaffe records for that night as to where claims were located.

 

[LadyWolf]

According to records Sgt J.F. Ennis from ME558 which crashed in Breitenheim did get out but he ended up drounding in Baggerloch lake in Wittisheim.

Sgt. H.C. Petty escaped the crash from LL852 but he was captured and was a POW. However, I cannot talk to him as he has passed away and even if he was alive I am aware he did not talk about his war experiences even to his family.

I've checked some Luftwaffe records but things still come across as possible and not exact.

As for weather it was very windy, little cloud on the way but some cloud over target but it ranged a great deal. I'll have to get my paperwork out on it but that is the general info.