Bomber offensive vs. Gemany: you are in charge

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This was a long post, but I'll cut it down to the highlights.

For the RAF:
1. Better crew training, with emphasis on night flying, more flying hours and navigation. Increased specialisation within the RAF for crew members
2. Two thirds reduction in daylight bombing raids and one third reduction in night raids in 1941, in favour of more aircraft and sending experienced pilots/navigators/gunners to training OTUs
3. OTU training increased to a minimum of 12 weeks
4. More resources to weather forecasting, particularly on prevailing winds
5. Earlier adoption of navigation aids – GEE and Oboe could be put into service at least 6-8 months prior to historical introduction, allowing their use from mid to late 1941
6. Earlier formation of dedicated pathfinding force – initially with Hampdens then with Mosquitos
7. Better reconnaissance and post-strike assessment by the RAF – more FC assets diverted to recon, systematic bomb damage assessment done with target cameras and post strike recon
8. Development of MC (40-50% charge to weight) and HC (70-80% c-t-w) bombs earlier in the war
9. Development of better target marking bombs – larger (500-2000 lbs) illumination and parachute flares and target marking devices with more predictable drop characteristics
10. Improved target selection – greater concentration on oil, electricity and transportation hubs and the aircraft industry, at the expense of dehousing and 'morale' targets
11. Increased mining operations
12. Earlier establishment of dedicated radio and radar countermeasures teams
13. Earlier adoption of night fighter intruder operations
14. Earlier development of drop tanks for the Spitfire V

Generally, I foresee a much less operationally active BC during 1941. Raids would be cut be about 50%, in favour of BC building up its reserves of trained manpower and newer aircraft and introducing new technologies and bombing techniques. The OTUs would be expanded by at least 40-50%, allowing active squadrons to concentrate on actual bombing instead of training.

The daylight campaign is limited to strikes against small targets in France and the Low Countries that would be too difficult or small to strike at night. This would include German naval and submarine bases, French transport hubs and Luftwaffe air bases.

When BC does bomb daylight targets, it does so with concentrations of greater significance. Circus raids are not limited to 6-20 bombers, but larger formations of at least 40-50 aircraft, escorted by appropriately large numbers of fighters. Raid results are properly assessed and targets, particularly day/night fighter airfields, are bomb repeatedly.
 
So Mosquitos bombing the **** out of German industry wouldn't get the Luftwaffe in the air?

And if the LW don't send the fighters, all the better for the bombers.

I think you miss the point. The USAAF daylight bombing campaign destroyed the Luftwaffe because it presented large, slow moving, well defended and well escorted formations which spent a long time over occupied territory. The luftwaffe engaged in a war of attrition it couldn't win. Even if they were escorted a formation of mosquitos moving at almost twice the speed of the B-17s would have been much more difficult to intercept and would have spent much less time in the air - that's what made the Mosquito such a great aircraft. The Luftwaffe wouldn't have had anything like the time required to launch wave after wave of attacks as they did against the formations of four -engined bombers and consequently any escorting fighters would have had less opportunity to inflict losses.
If you want to catch a lot of fish, use enticing bait and keep your line in the water.
 
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I think you miss the point. The USAAF daylight bombing campaign destroyed the Luftwaffe because it presented large, slow moving, well defended and well escorted formations which spent a long time over occupied territory. The luftwaffe engaged in a war of attrition it couldn't win. Even if they were escorted a formation of mosquitos moving at almost twice the speed of the B-17s would have been much more difficult to intercept and would have spent much less time in the air - that's what made the Mosquito such a great aircraft. The Luftwaffe wouldn't have had anything like the time required to launch wave after wave of attacks as they did against the formations of four -engined bombers and consequently any escorting fighters would have had less opportunity to inflict losses.
If you want to catch a lot of fish, use enticing bait and keep your line in the water.

P-51s couldn't really close escort Mosquitos anyway.

And if the LW won't come up to play there is always the option of hunting them at their home airfields.
 
I remember reading about a Mosquito being escorted by some mustangs - apparently the 51s had all sorts of trouble keeping up! I guess the mosquito must have had a higher criusing speed. In fact i think the mosquito had the highest cruising speed of anything untill the ME262 appeared - which is what happened to this one. The RAF pilot said he had to throw the Mosquito all over the sky untill the 262 ran out of ammo, gave him a wave and flew off. Must have been quite a show for the Mustang pilots.
 
Yes, Mosquitos had a better cruise speed than the Mustangs.

The USAAF used escorts for some (if not all) of their Mosquito missions (F-8s, which were either PR.XVIs or converted B.XXs). The RAF didn't provide escorts for their PR aircraft, at least generally.

There were some escorts for Mossies, however. The Amiens prison raid, for example, consisted of 18 FB Mossies plus one PR Mossie and an escort of Typhoons (can't recall the number).
 
If I was in charge of Bomber Command? One thing I'd do is bomb the U-Boat pens while they were being constructed, might help the Battle of the Atlantic.
 
Yes, Mosquitos had a better cruise speed than the Mustangs.

The USAAF used escorts for some (if not all) of their Mosquito missions (F-8s, which were either PR.XVIs or converted B.XXs). The RAF didn't provide escorts for their PR aircraft, at least generally.

There were some escorts for Mossies, however. The Amiens prison raid, for example, consisted of 18 FB Mossies plus one PR Mossie and an escort of Typhoons (can't recall the number).
From what I know Mosquitos cruised at 240
 
Actually, no it doesn't.

The Luftwaffe was not destroyed by the guns of the B-17s - which really weren't that effective - but by the long range escort fighters, such as the P-51. The effect was even greater when the escort fighters were released from close escort duties and tasked with hunting and destroying the Lutwaffe. By that stage the bombers were largely bait.

The Luftwaffe didn't help their cause either, with the edict that the defending fighters were to ignore the escorts and go after the bombers.

Actually, yes it was! B-17s shot down more Nazi aircraft than any other type of aircraft! B-24s were next! (At least according to Nazi records which were meticulous in that regard!)
 
So Mosquitos bombing the **** out of German industry wouldn't get the Luftwaffe in the air?

And if the LW don't send the fighters, all the better for the bombers.

With out the heavies, there would be no choice to be made in the Luftwaffe! Attack/defend against the heavies with 14,000 pounds up, or the Mossy with 2-4000? Right! The only reason that Mossies had such an enviable record was the Nazis made the only viable choice, ignore the flyweights fight the heavies!

There was no magic in the Mossy that made it invulnerable. It was not nearly fast enough to out run almost any single engined fighter. It was defenseless vs any fighter. It was not high enough of a flier to escape the lowly Me-109! The failure of judgment in that regard is made by ignorant or opinionated people with agendas. See the specs below of the best Mossy variant with the understanding that the actual loaded cruising speeds and ceiling are much less than these stated.

DH.98 Mosquito B Mk XVI

Data from Jane's Fighting Aircraft of World War II[147] and World War II Warbirds[150]

General characteristics

Crew: 2: pilot, bombardier/navigator
•Length: 44 ft 6 in (13.57 m)
•Wingspan: 54 ft 2 in (16.52 m)
•Height: 17 ft 5 in (5.3 m)
•Wing area: 454 ft² (42.18 m²)
•Empty weight: 14,300 lb (6,490 kg)
•Loaded weight: 18,100 lb (8,210 kg)
•Max. takeoff weight: 25,000 lb (11,000 kg)
•Powerplant: 2 × Rolls-Royce Merlin 76/77 (left/right) liquid-cooled V12 engine, 1,710 hp (1,280 kW) each

Performance

Maximum speed: 361 kn (415 mph, 668 km/h) at 28,000 ft (8,500 m)
•Range: 1,300 nmi (1,500 mi, 2,400 km) with full weapons load
•Service ceiling: 37,000 ft (11,000 m)
•Rate of climb: 2,850 ft/min (14.5 m/s)
•Wing loading: 39.9 lb/ft² (195 kg/m²)
•Power/mass: 0.189 hp/lb (311 W/kg)

Armament
•Bombs: 4,000 lb (1 800 kg)

Avionics
GEE radio-navigation
 
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With out the heavies, there would be no choice to be made in the Luftwaffe! Attack/defend against the heavies with 14,000 pounds up, or the Mossy with 2-4000? Right! The only reason that Mossies had such an enviable record was the Nazis made the only viable choice, ignore the flyweights fight the heavies!

Which heavies could carry 14,000lbs+? Really only the Lancaster in the ETO/MTO, and they operated mainly at night. The German nightfighters had good success against Lancasters, but could not catch a Mosquito. They really did try.


There was no magic in the Mossy that made it invulnerable. It was not nearly fast enough to out run almost any single engined fighter. It was defenseless vs any fighter. It was not high enough of a flier to escape the lowly Me-109! The failure of judgment in that regard is made by ignorant or opinionated people with agendas. See the specs below of the best Mossy variant with the understanding that the actual loaded cruising speeds and ceiling are much less than these stated.

Yet history tells us that the Mosquitos, flying predominately day missions between May 1942 and May 1943, would often outpace s/e fighter chasing them. Even if the s/e fighters were faster than the Mossies it would take longer for the fighters to catch up than if they were chasing B-17s or B-24s.

The Luftwaffe even had a unit specifically tasked with killing Mosquito bombers (IIRC at night) - but they were disbanded or retasked due to lack of success.
 
The Luftwaffe even had a unit specifically tasked with killing Mosquito bombers (IIRC at night) - but they were disbanded or retasked due to lack of success.

I think it was JG 52, day fighters, intended to combat recce craft, again IIRC, not my area of expertise.
 
Actually, yes it was! B-17s shot down more Nazi aircraft than any other type of aircraft! B-24s were next! (At least according to Nazi records which were meticulous in that regard!)

Sounds more like bomber gunner claims.

For example, on the Schweinfurt-Regensburg mission bomber gunners claimed 288 enemy aircraft shot down, Spitfire pilots 13 and P-47 pilots 19. Luftwaffe records show 25-27 aircraft were lost....

Wonder whether it was the gunners or fighters that shot the 25-27 down?
 
Found it!

Jagdgeschwader 50 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jagdgeschwader 50 (JG 50), sometimes erroneously referred to as Jagdgruppe 50, was a special high-altitude fighter unit that specialized in intercepting the Royal Air Force's de Havilland Mosquito light bombers during World War II.

JG 50 were initially equipped with eight Messerschmitt Bf 109G-5s and Bf 109G-6s polished to increase speed, and equipped with a special tank for liquefied nitrous oxide as part of the GM-1 engine power boosting system, which was injected directly into the supercharger intake. This allowed the pilot to boost the rated horsepower of the DB 605 engine. Graf set a world record for high altitude flight of 46,885 ft (14,291 m) feet in one of the modified 109s. The unit was later also equipped with specially supercharged FW-190A-5.

In around four months of operations Graf was the sole pilot of JG 50 to down a Mosquito, which he caught after loitering at 30,000 feet over Groningen.
 
Siefried, you didn't mention the area bombing of British cities by the LW. The subsequent allied bomber offensive against the axis powers was part of the plan to defeat them.
'total war' was declared and the gloves came off.

I have said before that the casualties were appalling and a raid like Dresden is akin to a nuclear attack.

Did the end justify the means?

I would have to say 'yes' but, with reluctance.

John

You are clearly wrong about that opinion! You should have said a resounding YES! When you fight modern war, the civilian population that powers the war machine is a valid target. The answer to carpet bombing civilians is that they are not really civilians, they are accessories before the fact in legal terms. If they had stopped Hitler before he started the war, they would not be targets afterwards!

Civilization faces the same question today! Islam is the source of the vast majority of all suffering and premature death in the world today! ( And for the last 1400 years!) If we really wanted to reduce the total suffering and premature death in the world we should threaten and then NUC Mecca if they choose not to clean up their own mess!
 

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