Bomber offensive vs. Gemany: you are in charge

[SHOOTER]

The Germans kept track of how their planes were shot down. They assumed that bullet holes in the front came from a bomber's deffencive guns and those with holes from the back were downed by fighters. The bomber gunners "Claimed" they shot down over 28,000 Nazi planes, But German records show that it was closer to 10-11,000, IIRC! The vast majority, 2/3rds, by B-17s!

 

[wuzak]

The Germans kept track of how their planes were shot down. They assumed that bullet holes in the front came from a bomber's deffencive guns and those with holes from the back were downed by fighters. The bomber gunners "Claimed" they shot down over 28,000 Nazi planes, But German records show that it was closer to 10-11,000, IIRC! The vast majority, 2/3rds, by B-17s!

The claims to actual losses ratio look sway too low for defensive gunners to me.

It also sounds a lot like USAAF propoganda being used to defend the self defending bomber concept.

 

[MIflyer]

We have come to realize that the best thing about the bomber offensive on Germany was that it destroyed the Luftwaffe. The Germans simply did not have the luxury of building an offensive bomber force that was good enough to even put on a decent 4th of July airshow by US standards. While destroying German cities perhaps did not hurt their war effort as much as had been though by airpower advocates, it imposed a huge psychological on the Luftwaffe. While the Luftwaffe might have been used to much better effect attacking Allied ground support aircraft and ground forces, the Jadgewaffe simply could not stand civilains saying to them "1000 bombers hit us yesterday! Where was the Luftwaffe?"

In the Battle of the Bulge this was used to good effect. Want to hit the Panzer armies with P-47's and Typhoons with no interference from the Luftwaffe? Simple! Plan a 8th AF heavy bomber raid on a nearby German city. The Luftwaffe will abandon their ground troops to save their honor!

But of course, this is all true of daylight bombing, but far less so with night bombing.

 

[mhuxt]

Found it!

Jagdgeschwader 50 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thanks for that. The trouble with the info on Graf's claim is, there never seems to be a clear date attached, apparently it was sometime in June '43, but that was apparently before the antil-Mossie unit went operational. Groningen is also a fair way from southern Germany.

 

[SHOOTER]

Which heavies could carry 14,000lbs+? Really only the Lancaster in the ETO/MTO, and they operated mainly at night. The German nightfighters had good success against Lancasters, but could not catch a Mosquito. They really did try.
Look up the He-219? But you confuse a strategic choice of the Germans in that they made little effort to chase the Mossy and spent huge sums to stop the heavies. WO the heavies, they could have spent those resources Vs the Mossies. You tell me what you would do if you were in charge of the Luftwaffe in WW-II and there were no heavies to chase.

What chance would the Mossy have if it was the only target in the sky? Right!

While much of what you state is true, the mossy was hard to intercept. But not impossible. In addition, the Mossy was a slow and difficult plane to build that required large amounts of highly skilled labor and scarce types of wood, much of which had to be imported. What happens if there are no heavies to keep the Germans busy and they build several hundred He-219s, each of which shoots down just one Mossy on every other mission?

Yet history tells us that the Mosquitos, flying predominately day missions between May 1942 and May 1943, would often outpace s/e fighter chasing them. Even if the s/e fighters were faster than the Mossies it would take longer for the fighters to catch up than if they were chasing B-17s or B-24s.
Yes this is true, but not realivant.
The Luftwaffe even had a unit specifically tasked with killing Mosquito bombers (IIRC at night) - but they were disbanded or retasked due to lack of success.

Yes this is true, but also irrealivant! Just because the Nazis chose to send half to a dozen single engined fighters to look for Mossies with little support, what do you think would happen if there were no heavies to chase? RIGHT!

 

[SHOOTER]

The claims to actual losses ratio look sway too low for defensive gunners to me.

It also sounds a lot like USAAF propoganda being used to defend the self defending bomber concept.

What part of "German records" did you fail to understand? in nice round numbers; the Nazis said that they lost ~7,000 to B-17s, 2,500 to B-24s, I was wrong about this before! I thought it was closer to 5,000! They also lost 400 to B-26s and 200 more to B-25s. According to the Nazis, they lost more AC to B-17s than any other type!

 

[evangilder]

You are clearly wrong about that opinion! You should have said a resounding YES! When you fight modern war, the civilian population that powers the war machine is a valid target. The answer to carpet bombing civilians is that they are not really civilians, they are accessories before the fact in legal terms. If they had stopped Hitler before he started the war, they would not be targets afterwards!

Civilization faces the same question today! Islam is the source of the vast majority of all suffering and premature death in the world today! ( And for the last 1400 years!) If we really wanted to reduce the total suffering and premature death in the world we should threaten and then NUC Mecca if they choose not to clean up their own mess!

Shooter, you need to put that attitude in check right now and get back on topic. This is your last warning.

 

[wuzak]

Look up the He-219? But you confuse a strategic choice of the Germans in that they made little effort to chase the Mossy and spent huge sums to stop the heavies. WO the heavies, they could have spent those resources Vs the Mossies. You tell me what you would do if you were in charge of the Luftwaffe in WW-II and there were no heavies to chase.

A lot of the resources you speak of were twin engined night-fighters which could not hope to catch the Mosquito.

I think you need to look up the He 219. It could not catch the Mosquito bomber at night, unless it was a specially stripped version (A7?) which could barely catch them. The He 219 was also bigger, and was heavier empty than the Mosquito loaded.

I read a report somewhere that on a night raid almost all the available LW NF assets were sent against a diversionary raid by Mosquitos, leaving the main force to bomb relatively unmolested. Not many, if any, Mosquitos were lost, bu tthe LW may have shot down some of their own aircraft.

The evidence is that the LW did spend resources on trying to shoot down Mossies - maybe not as much as per theheavy bombers, but also less successfully.

What chance would the Mossy have if it was the only target in the sky? Right!

More than just about any other bomber in existance at the time.

While much of what you state is true, the mossy was hard to intercept. But not impossible. In addition, the Mossy was a slow and difficult plane to build that required large amounts of highly skilled labor and scarce types of wood, much of which had to be imported. What happens if there are no heavies to keep the Germans busy and they build several hundred He-219s, each of which shoots down just one Mossy on every other mission?

The Mossie was not "a slow and difficult" plane to build, and did not require large amounts of highly skilled labour. In fact, most of the labour involved in building Mosquitos was not skilled. It is true of the wood that it had to be imported. But that is also true of aluminium.

If each He 219s shot down a Mosquito every other mission I'm sure the LW high comman would be beside themselves with joy. I doubt it would ever happen.

Yes this is true, but also irrealivant! Just because the Nazis chose to send half to a dozen single engined fighters to look for Mossies with little support, what do you think would happen if there were no heavies to chase? RIGHT!

So, because a specially formed squadron couldn't down any Mosquito bombers or recce aircraft even though they were flying specially prepared aircraft has no relevence on how well the rest of the fighter arm would fare against them?

 

[wuzak]

What part of "German records" did you fail to understand? in nice round numbers; the Nazis said that they lost ~7,000 to B-17s, 2,500 to B-24s, I was wrong about this before! I thought it was closer to 5,000! They also lost 400 to B-26s and 200 more to B-25s. According to the Nazis, they lost more AC to B-17s than any other type!

I don't believe it unless you show me, or point to where I could find them, the sources.

 

[Erich]

I'd like to see that source(s) as well since 1945 records are lost to oblivion

addition any Mossie could be shot down by any LW NF if given the right angle and height advantage, my cousin shot down a FB in his outdated Do 217 N-1 while the FB's were attacking bases clsoe to Sylt in 1943. He 219A's accounted for a total of 12 Mossies. 10.(N)/JG 300 bf 109G-6AS craft accounted for more with only 3 months in action ..........it's all getting covered in my book....

if guys ask specific questions then I may be able to answer you.

 

[mhuxt]

"Look up the He-219?"


What about the He-219?

 

[Vincenzo]

The USAAF heavy bombers claimed 9.276 enemy aircrafts in the air in ETO&MTO, the light&medium 613.

 

[wuzak]

I'd like to see that source(s) as well since 1945 records are lost to oblivion

addition any Mossie could be shot down by any LW NF if given the right angle and height advantage, my cousin shot down a FB in his outdated Do 217 N-1 while the FB's were attacking bases clsoe to Sylt in 1943. He 219A's accounted for a total of 12 Mossies. 10.(N)/JG 300 bf 109G-6AS craft accounted for more with only 3 months in action ..........it's all getting covered in my book....

if guys ask specific questions then I may be able to answer you.

OK.

How many sorties were required to get the 12?

Were 6 or these from the A-0s?

The He 219 had an auspicious combat debut. On the night of 11–12 June 1943, Werner Streib flew the V9 and shot down five bombers between 01:05 and 02:22 hours, before crashing on landing. A claim has consistently been made that, "In the next 10 days the three Heinkel He 219A-0 pre-production aircraft would shoot down a total of 20 RAF aircraft, including six of the previously "untouchable" de Havilland Mosquito fighter-bombers. Greatly encouraged, Kammhuber continued to press for immediate production." No record of corresponding Mosquito losses or any documentary evidence exists, however, to suggest that He 219 pilots actually made claims for six Mosquitos during this time.

Heinkel He 219 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Were any He 219s victims of Mosquito NFs?

 

[wuzak]

The USAAF heavy bombers claimed 9.276 enemy aircrafts in the air in ETO&MTO, the light&medium 613.

"Claimed". How many confirmed?

 

[mhuxt]

Were any He 219s victims of Mosquito NFs?

Mossies made claims for 17.5 He 219s destroyed, the half being a claim shared with Mustangs on a daylight op. That particular He 219 is known to have gone down from LW and Allied (Ultra) records, current discussion over at 12 O'Clock HIgh forum.

 

[Erich]

you can dig deeper in research to find the variants, the dates should help you

28/28 July 42 obviously no HE 219
27/28, May 43
12/13, December 43
6/7 of May 44
27/28 of May 44 - 2 kills
10/11 June 44
10/11 June 44
11/12 June 44
24/25 June 44
1/2 of July 44
10/11 July 44
18/19 of July 1944 by Hptm Strüning

too many He's shot down by Mossie NF's, remember most of the LW variants of the Uhu did not have rear warning radar installed.

 

[Vincenzo]

"Claimed". How many confirmed?

Look on german archive and cheeck for each USAAF bomber mission claim and actually losses of LW


i used claimed maybe not in your sense, this are claimed from usaaf not from bomber's crew

 

[Erich]

as I said earlier the 1945 claims are not incorporated as they are lost except for the rare technical instance of Flugbuch entries, the German archivs will not help you though manyprivate parties seem to have a growing database of LW losses by A/C type

 

[wuzak]

you can dig deeper in research to find the variants, the dates should help you

28/28 July 42 obviously no HE 219
27/28, May 43
12/13, December 43
6/7 of May 44
27/28 of May 44 - 2 kills
10/11 June 44
10/11 June 44
11/12 June 44
24/25 June 44
1/2 of July 44
10/11 July 44
18/19 of July 1944 by Hptm Strüning

too many He's shot down by Mossie NF's, remember most of the LW variants of the Uhu did not have rear warning radar installed.

So 12 in a year?

What happened after July 1944? Did the He 219 not encounter any more Mossies?

 

[mhuxt]

you can dig deeper in research to find the variants, the dates should help you

28/28 July 42 obviously no HE 219
27/28, May 43
12/13, December 43
6/7 of May 44
27/28 of May 44 - 2 kills
10/11 June 44
10/11 June 44
11/12 June 44
24/25 June 44
1/2 of July 44
10/11 July 44
18/19 of July 1944 by Hptm Strüning

too many He's shot down by Mossie NF's, remember most of the LW variants of the Uhu did not have rear warning radar installed.

Hi Erich,

27/28 May '43 - Claim by Struening, would have been on a 110 I think? Before the 219 debut with Streib?

12/13 December '43, I have a note that was Meurer, on a Ju 88 R-2.

1/2 July '44, the Mosquito claimed by Fincke was able to RTB.