GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
And a large number of Gypsies, too.
Bombing Auschwitz
- Thread starter MIflyer
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GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
For a complete (and sobering) detail of the classes and nationalities of prisoners at Auschwitz, here a link:
Geoffrey Sinclair
Staff Sergeant
- 932
- Sep 30, 2021
Concentration camps, meant as harsh punishment, around once the Nazis took power, over time the death rates climbed as the Nazis thought they were going to win and did not need the labour.
Auschwitz is really short hand for the killing system, ignoring the extermination camps which did so many of the killings, mainly in 1942/43, part of Auschwitz was a prototype and stayed in use but it was mainly meant as a large concentration camp, supplying labour for the IG Farben plant for example, not as an extermination camp. When the Nazis gained access to what they considered to be undesirables previously protected by its allied European governments in 1943 and 1944 Auschwitz was the last camp to have the infrastructure to kill and dispose of large numbers quickly.
Auschwitz: Key Dates
The point about the extermination camps was to mimimise the amount of effort, including psychological, to kill large numbers of people and dispose of their bodies. So the crematoriums and no contact between the men dropping the poison gas into the chambers and the people killed. The camps were located in pre war Poland, Treblinka was no more than a forest clearing on a rail line. This was after two years of shooting executions, dropping the bodies into pits and experiments with poison gasses. It took the Nazis a while to figure out to commit mass murder efficiently. In 1942 it was all new, no one had done this before, including the high capacity crematoria. In 1944 the plans and techniques were known and proven, that is one of the horrible legacies of the Nazis, industrialised mass murder using minimum resources, plans now all ready for the next dictator.
Operation Rheinhard commenced operations on 17 March 1942, the start of Balzac killing operations, Balzac finishing in March 1943, I believe then demolished. Chelmno has started its killing operations in December 1941, ended in March 1943, demolished. With a revival of the site for more killings in 1944. Majdanek started killing operations in April 1942, continuing to end 1943 but it was more for local killings. Sobibor started killing operations in May 1942, finished in October 1943 after a revolt, demolished. Treblinka II started killing operations in July 1942, largely shut down in May 1943.
In late 1942 the emphasis was changed on using the prisoners as slave labour, the old, young and sick were still routinely killed, the others were worked hard while given little of the basic necessities, to the point where it can be claimed the purpose was death, not useful work. The extermination camps were largely shut down, the concentration camps were made more work orientated. Leaving Auschwitz - Birkenau as the place where large numbers could still be killed.
The allies rarely bombed rail targets in Poland, Wadowice Marshalling Yard on 13 September 1944 with 75 short tons by the 15th Air Force is probably the only raid. The raids on the Auschwitz IG Farben plant, 6% loss rate using attacking sorties.
Poland could only be hit by allied heavy bombers operating at extreme range, and bombing rail lines was something heavy bombers did badly. The results of the transport strikes in Italy, France and Germany shows any raids would be ineffective when it came to stopping rail traffic to Auschwitz. It was the medium, light and fighter bombers that shut down most of the trains and lines, the heavy bombers were the ones that shut down the marshalling yards, which had a big impact on the economy. If you look at the heavy bomber accuracies the reality is the allies would have killed large numbers of prisoners in their above ground wooden huts, with no air raid shelters, while having a low probability of inflicting lasting damage on the killing operations. There was always the option for forced marches if the trains were not running and it does not take much rail capacity to move things if the trains are made up outside the interdiction area and immediately return there, like the German trains to France and back in the June to September 1944 period.
The only force that stood some sort of chance to hit the gas chambers or crematoria reliably would have been the Mosquito fighter bomber units, as they were trained for such low level work. They would be dropping 500 pound bombs, no more than 2 per aircraft. In June 1944 the RAF had 6 squadrons of Mosquito fighter bombers with Fighter Command/2nd Tactical Air Force, 1 with Coastal Command and 3 with Bomber Command. Only the first 6 had any sort of low level training, and as of 5 June held 123 aircraft. Since the Mosquito VI had a range of 1,320 miles at sea level with a pair of 100 gallon fuel tanks, Auschwitz would be at extreme range from the nearest allied bases since it was around 600 air miles from Foggia and over 700 air miles from England. Plenty of time for the Germans to plot any such raid. If it works you can deliver around 60 short tons of bombs.
Auschwitz is really short hand for the killing system, ignoring the extermination camps which did so many of the killings, mainly in 1942/43, part of Auschwitz was a prototype and stayed in use but it was mainly meant as a large concentration camp, supplying labour for the IG Farben plant for example, not as an extermination camp. When the Nazis gained access to what they considered to be undesirables previously protected by its allied European governments in 1943 and 1944 Auschwitz was the last camp to have the infrastructure to kill and dispose of large numbers quickly.
Auschwitz: Key Dates
The point about the extermination camps was to mimimise the amount of effort, including psychological, to kill large numbers of people and dispose of their bodies. So the crematoriums and no contact between the men dropping the poison gas into the chambers and the people killed. The camps were located in pre war Poland, Treblinka was no more than a forest clearing on a rail line. This was after two years of shooting executions, dropping the bodies into pits and experiments with poison gasses. It took the Nazis a while to figure out to commit mass murder efficiently. In 1942 it was all new, no one had done this before, including the high capacity crematoria. In 1944 the plans and techniques were known and proven, that is one of the horrible legacies of the Nazis, industrialised mass murder using minimum resources, plans now all ready for the next dictator.
Operation Rheinhard commenced operations on 17 March 1942, the start of Balzac killing operations, Balzac finishing in March 1943, I believe then demolished. Chelmno has started its killing operations in December 1941, ended in March 1943, demolished. With a revival of the site for more killings in 1944. Majdanek started killing operations in April 1942, continuing to end 1943 but it was more for local killings. Sobibor started killing operations in May 1942, finished in October 1943 after a revolt, demolished. Treblinka II started killing operations in July 1942, largely shut down in May 1943.
In late 1942 the emphasis was changed on using the prisoners as slave labour, the old, young and sick were still routinely killed, the others were worked hard while given little of the basic necessities, to the point where it can be claimed the purpose was death, not useful work. The extermination camps were largely shut down, the concentration camps were made more work orientated. Leaving Auschwitz - Birkenau as the place where large numbers could still be killed.
The allies rarely bombed rail targets in Poland, Wadowice Marshalling Yard on 13 September 1944 with 75 short tons by the 15th Air Force is probably the only raid. The raids on the Auschwitz IG Farben plant, 6% loss rate using attacking sorties.
| Date | Sighting | Attacking | Lost | Bombs, short tons |
20-Aug-44 | Vis | 127 | 1 | 334.0 |
13-Sep-44 | Vis | 69 | 5 | 171.3 |
13-Sep-44 | H2X | 27 | 3 | 64.5 |
18-Dec-44 | Vis | 27 | 2 | 63.5 |
18-Dec-44 | H2X | 22 | 0 | 45.5 |
26-Dec-44 | Vis | 69 | 9 | 119.8 |
26-Dec-44 | H2X | 26 | 2 | 50.0 |
Poland could only be hit by allied heavy bombers operating at extreme range, and bombing rail lines was something heavy bombers did badly. The results of the transport strikes in Italy, France and Germany shows any raids would be ineffective when it came to stopping rail traffic to Auschwitz. It was the medium, light and fighter bombers that shut down most of the trains and lines, the heavy bombers were the ones that shut down the marshalling yards, which had a big impact on the economy. If you look at the heavy bomber accuracies the reality is the allies would have killed large numbers of prisoners in their above ground wooden huts, with no air raid shelters, while having a low probability of inflicting lasting damage on the killing operations. There was always the option for forced marches if the trains were not running and it does not take much rail capacity to move things if the trains are made up outside the interdiction area and immediately return there, like the German trains to France and back in the June to September 1944 period.
The only force that stood some sort of chance to hit the gas chambers or crematoria reliably would have been the Mosquito fighter bomber units, as they were trained for such low level work. They would be dropping 500 pound bombs, no more than 2 per aircraft. In June 1944 the RAF had 6 squadrons of Mosquito fighter bombers with Fighter Command/2nd Tactical Air Force, 1 with Coastal Command and 3 with Bomber Command. Only the first 6 had any sort of low level training, and as of 5 June held 123 aircraft. Since the Mosquito VI had a range of 1,320 miles at sea level with a pair of 100 gallon fuel tanks, Auschwitz would be at extreme range from the nearest allied bases since it was around 600 air miles from Foggia and over 700 air miles from England. Plenty of time for the Germans to plot any such raid. If it works you can deliver around 60 short tons of bombs.
- Thread starter
- #24
MIflyer
1st Lieutenant
True! The RAF and USAAF did a fine job hitting RR targets in France before Operation Overlord. The RAF in particular used the Master Bomber technique and demonstrated the ability to destroy RR yards and leave the associated French populated areas relatively unscathed. With such a reduced range and lower threat situation they could bring the heavies in at night at pretty low altitudes. But that was France and those missions were all but milk runs compared to hitting Germany, for either force.
A special Mossie mission? Well, that worked for the Amiens prison but it was over 1000 miles closer to the UK.
Maybe you could conceive of a USAAF Shuttle Mission, B-17's or B-24's flying to Auschwitz, descending to low altitude to hit the targets and then recovering in the USSR. Or P-38's with one bomb and one drop tank, flying from southern Italy, refueling on the tiny island in the Adriatic and then flying down the RR lines, dropping a 500 lb bomb every 1000 ft or so.
But then again, the USSR's tactical aircraft could have hit Auschwitz and the RR lines to it quite easily; they were within range. Stormaviks or PE-2's or even B-25's could have done the job with suitable special training. So why didn't those lawyers sue the Russians?
Snautzer01
Honourably banned
- 43,356
- Mar 26, 2007
Didnt think of that. But true. But as in the Warsaw uprising. No waist to goals not on the battle plan i think. On the other hand it is perhaps the same reason western allies did diddly.
- Thread starter
- #26
MIflyer
1st Lieutenant
The Western Allies did want to fly supply missions to Warsaw, which was about all they could have done.
And ironically at the very moment the Warsaw Uprising was being crushed, Polish troops armed with US equipment were cutting off the retreat of the German Army in Normandy. When the Germans there found out who they were fighting they were NOT pleased; they knew there would be no quarter expected nor given. It was with some amusement that the Polish troops captured German individual pay records and noted they had fought some of those same troops in 1939.
tommayer
Airman
Documentation for Communists running Auschwitz, please.
- Thread starter
- #28
MIflyer
1st Lieutenant
"A book I have, "In the Shadows of War".....
yulzari
Tech Sergeant
I cannot comment in regard to the Polish army in NW Europe which operationally formed a notable part of the Commonwealth forces. However, in Italy one of the sources for new Polish soldiers were German POWs. Those who had Polish origins or could speak Polish got sort of lost from POW camps and found themselves somehow dressed in British uniforms, surrounded by Polish soldiers and becoming suddenly keen to participate with them. I understand some sort of logistical compensation was unofficially arranged at a local personal level to extricate them from the POW camps.
- Thread starter
- #30
MIflyer
1st Lieutenant
It is known that a fairly large percentage of German troops were in fact "drafted" from the nations the Germans had overrun. Fighting from prepared defensive positions with a German NCO stopping by occasionally, they could do a decent job unless things got too rough.
But on the other hand, there was an RAF Typhoon pilot who was shot down in Normandy a few weeks after 6 June 1944. They were marching hm to the East but following a series of Allied air attacks he got to chatting with his captors and eventually returned to Allied lines with 17 "German" soldiers in tow.
But on the other hand, there was an RAF Typhoon pilot who was shot down in Normandy a few weeks after 6 June 1944. They were marching hm to the East but following a series of Allied air attacks he got to chatting with his captors and eventually returned to Allied lines with 17 "German" soldiers in tow.
I have thought about this in the past. I wondered if some sort of shuttle raid involving 617 Squadron operating out of an airfield in Italy might have been an option on the crematoria or gas chambers. The ordnance of choice, the Tallboy. The raid in clear conditions and escorted by squadrons of mustangs. Just musing…
I'm not sure if mosquitoes would have the required range or ability to carry a sufficiently sized bomb for this task. 617 certainly was tasked on specialized operations requiring accuracy and precision.
Not sure if there was a suitable airfield in Italy late in the war that might make been suitable?
Jim
Last edited:
Excellent post summarizing the importance of dates and logistics. I've quoted the above paragraph to discuss dates.
Chelmno was reopened for mass killing June 23, 1944, with the intent of murdering the 70,000 Jews of Lodz. Starting in mid-July, they began shipping the inmates to Auschwitz-Birkenau as there was concern over Soviet advances in Operation Bagration. Approximately 25,000 Jews were killed from June - September 1944, the rest shipped to Auschwitz-Birkenau. In September, a detachment of 80 Sonderkommando (Jewish workers tasked with handling corpses) were brought to Chelmo, the gas vans returned to Berlin, and the Sonderkommando exhuming and cremating any remaining bodies, along with other tasks related to concealing the mass murder. That work took about a month, and in October, half the Sonderkommando detachment was executed. The remaining 40 were kept at the camp for odd jobs until January 18, 1945 when they were murdered (there was one survivor with a gunshot wound to the head, who later testified against the Nazis present). The Soviets, already in possession of the town of Chelmo, occupied the camp two days later, all the Germans having fled.
At Majdanek, all but 71 Jews were systematically killed by November 4, 1943. There were still over 6,200 other prisoners still at the camp by that date, and executions continued, albeit at a slower pace. From December 1943 - March 1944, the camp took in an additional 18,000 prisoners. As the Soviets approached, efforts were made to cover up the killings and dismantle the camp, and between 12,000 and 15,000 prisoners were sent on forced marches to six different camps, including Plaszow, Ravensbruck, and Auschwitz. The last contingent of prisoners was forced-marched to Auschwitz starting on July 22. Some 500 prisoners were present in the camp when the Soviets arrived on July 24.
I think you can do the math: 6200 + 18000 = 24,200 - 15,000 = 9200 - 500 = 8700. As a minimum, 8700 more were killed between November 1943 and the camp's liberation, not counting those who died on the forced marches. Very few of these were Jews. Killings were primarily by Zyklon-B, but hundreds were executed by firing squads as well.
As Geoffrey mentioned, Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka were non-operational by April of 1944. Only Auschwitz-Birkenau remained. That's significant.
It's worthwhile to maintain the distinction between concentration camps and death camps. Auschwitz I and Plaszow as portrayed in Schindler's List were concentration camps. Although killings were frequent and conditions brutal, mass killing was not the function of these camps and they were poorly equipped for it. This is alluded to in the scene in Schindler's List where Hauptsturmfuhrer Goth bewailed having to exhumate and cremate victims of the liquidation of Krakow. Concentration camps were simply not equipped to handle the logistics of mass murder; death camps were.
At first, it was much as you might imagine, mass shootings into mass graves. That worked well when the SS came to town, murdered all the Jews and other "undesirables", and then moved on. But when hundreds of thousands were brought to one place for death, the sheer number of bodies to be disposed of posed sanitary and logistical problems. Thus, the system of cremation developed. The "bottleneck" in the system wasn't firing squads or carbon monoxide vans or gas chambers, it was the crematoria. Bodies could be temporarily placed in mass graves and then exhumed for cremation, but as the war turned against the Nazis, given their wish to conceal their deeds so as to not enrage their enemies, that was no longer an option. Thus, I must differ. Auschwitz simply was a vital cog in the execution machine, if not by April of 1944, then certainly by the end of July when it was the sole functioning extermination camp.
Between April and November (when mass killings at Auschwitz ceased) of 1944, at least 250,000 persons were killed. Now, Birkenau (Auschwitz II) could hold about 125,000 prisoners. So, at least 125,000 were brought in by rail during those months, possibly many more. I'm not saying that anyone could have or should have tried to disrupt that operation by bombing, but if rail transport into Auschwitz could have been disrupted, it would have saved lives. To put this in perspective, there were some 35,000 prisoners (slaves, really) at Auschwitz III. Under the working conditions there, the death rate was about 32 per day. That means that from April to November, perhaps some 6000 poor souls were worked to death. But keep that in mind...6,000 vs. 250,000. Certainly prisoners could have been shipped to other camps...if rail transport was available. Remember that Auschwitz was deliberately located where it was to take advantage of the rail network. The forced marches were relatively small and tied up disproportionate amounts of SS compared to rail transport.
Could more prisoners have been executed even if the rail lines into Auschwitz were disrupted? Of course they could have. But would those executions have matched what historically took place in the camps? Color me skeptical.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
We have the ability to sit back and scrutinize the war in detail because we have a detailed view of what happened from the start to finish.
What seems to be often forgotten, is how much was known in opposing sides at the time.
The Germans went to great lengths to keep the death camps as discreet as possible for several reasons. One was that they were concerned about international reaction and as the fortunes of war turned against Germany and Allied troops approached various death camps, they worked hard at exhuming mass graves to cremate the bodies and tried to dismantle as much of the gas chambers and/or crematoriums as possible.
The other reason for secrecy is that if word got out, it would make the job of rounding up the Jews much more difficult.
It wasn't until April 1944 that someone managed to escape Auschwitz (two men, actually) and it wasn't until July of that year that the Allies were made aware of what was going on by a report from Switzerland.
As has been mentioned earlier in this thread, the logistics of attacking any part of the death camp network at Auschwitz would require detailed Intel and then try and figure out how to get the bombers that far East to conduct a precision strike.
If such a mission were able to have been made even with limited success, what would be the German's reaction?
They would most likely abandon the damaged camp(s) and either force march the survivors to neighboring camps, or kill them all.
As for hitting the railroad: how many bombing missions in France targeted the same rail system and marshalling yards time after time? The Germans were very good at repairing damaged rail lines and bombing the rail line at Auschwitz/A.G. Farben would have seen the railroad repaired quickly. And as been stated earlier, the work would be done by forced labor.
What seems to be often forgotten, is how much was known in opposing sides at the time.
The Germans went to great lengths to keep the death camps as discreet as possible for several reasons. One was that they were concerned about international reaction and as the fortunes of war turned against Germany and Allied troops approached various death camps, they worked hard at exhuming mass graves to cremate the bodies and tried to dismantle as much of the gas chambers and/or crematoriums as possible.
The other reason for secrecy is that if word got out, it would make the job of rounding up the Jews much more difficult.
It wasn't until April 1944 that someone managed to escape Auschwitz (two men, actually) and it wasn't until July of that year that the Allies were made aware of what was going on by a report from Switzerland.
As has been mentioned earlier in this thread, the logistics of attacking any part of the death camp network at Auschwitz would require detailed Intel and then try and figure out how to get the bombers that far East to conduct a precision strike.
If such a mission were able to have been made even with limited success, what would be the German's reaction?
They would most likely abandon the damaged camp(s) and either force march the survivors to neighboring camps, or kill them all.
As for hitting the railroad: how many bombing missions in France targeted the same rail system and marshalling yards time after time? The Germans were very good at repairing damaged rail lines and bombing the rail line at Auschwitz/A.G. Farben would have seen the railroad repaired quickly. And as been stated earlier, the work would be done by forced labor.
