Breda Ba.88 Lince: what went wrong?

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by tomo pauk, Apr 9, 2013.

  1. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

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    Plane that is almost an epitome of an unsuccessful design. Why was that? What the management/designers/production lines got wrong?
     
  2. Elmas

    Elmas Active Member

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    #2 Elmas, Apr 9, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2013
    Briefly, it was by far too heavy and underpowered. The specifications issued by the Genio Aeronautico required a design strenght of 12 G, well over the strenght of the Pilot inside....
     
  3. Capt. Vick

    Capt. Vick Well-Known Member

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    Looks cool though!
     
  4. GregP

    GregP Well-Known Member

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    #4 GregP, Apr 9, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2013
    Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I have never thought it looked good, but have wondered why it was so bad.

    Designing a bomber to 12 g makes no sense unless it is going to be a dive bomber. And it STILL makes no sense if you don't have the power required to fly it.
     
  5. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

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    Thanks for the feedback, people.
    Quick look at Wikipedia reveals the wing loading (on empty weight) being bigger than for the Bf-110C-4 for almost 20%. The power loading was also some 10% worse, and it's not hard to imagine that drag was also greater. The three factors combined should indeed make a mess from operational use of the airplane.
    The 'military load' (crew of 2, MGs + ammo, fuel...; no bombs) increase the weight to 6750 kg, vs. 6700 kg ('loaded weight', per Wikipedia) for the 110C-4?
     
  6. GregP

    GregP Well-Known Member

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    Al least it was better than the PZL Zubr, widely regarded as the worst "modern" aircrft design ever ... and right behind such notables as the Langley Aerodrome (you might say it got airborne or you might say it fell to the water) and Chritmas Bullet (got airborne, but not for long, one flight ... one fataility) in utility.
     
  7. Elmas

    Elmas Active Member

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    In those days the stressed skin construction was at the outset, and the Air Forces, in the world over, tend to be very conservative and rather careful about the Pilots necks.
    Briefly, it was not completely clear why a stressed skin construction was so strong.....
    So the Breda 88 had a main structure made of steel tubes, like the structure needed for a canvas covered airplane, PLUS a stressed skin covering, like that of a monocoque structure: of course by far exceeding the strenght needed and then adding quite unnecessary weight.
     
  8. Shortround6

    Shortround6 Well-Known Member

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    We have to be careful when looking at how many "G"s a plane was stressed for as there is service stress and ultimate stress. Most American fighters were required to meet a 12"G" ultimate stress which was considered a 50% overload or safety margin over the expected 8 "G" service load. How a manufacturer figured in airframe fatigue I don't know. AS in stressing a fighter for an occasional8 "G" service turn or pull out with a 12 "G" ultimate stress level vs a dive bomber which was EXPECTED to pull 5-6 "G"s on each and EVERY combat or bomb training mission. It might still have a 12 "G" ultimate load factor but be built heavier to handle the fatigue of day in, day out high "G" pull outs.
     
  9. razor1uk

    razor1uk Well-Known Member

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    It was a dive bomber in concept, but lack of power, and its high weight meant that dive bombing with it was quickly changed in pilot force moral to glide/shallow bombing, as it was apparently a pig to pull out, even with its 'dropped' its landing gear as dive (and hence speed/energy) brakes.
     
  10. Bob_Semple_Airplane

    Bob_Semple_Airplane New Member

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    It worked fine during initial trials, even setting speed records, but adding military equipment made it too heavy. So it was good if it was flying in a straight line with equipment removed, but real operations are entirely different.

    They ended up using the airframes as ground target decoys.
     
  11. buffnut453

    buffnut453 Well-Known Member

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    Ba.88 - the exception to prove the rule that if it looks right, it flies right! :D

    Seriously, given its looks it should have been feted as the Italian Mosquito. Instead its fetid performance (did you see how I did that? What a wit!! :p) fated it (oops...there I go again! :oops:) it to become a mockery of a combat aircraft, more dangerous to its own crew than it was to the enemy.
     
  12. GregP

    GregP Well-Known Member

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    Molre dangerous to its own crew than the enemy?

    Breda B.88 Lince
    Bachem Natter
    Yokosuka MXY7 Ohka

    There are others ... but 3 is 3 too many. The Christmas Bullet comes to mind ... so maybe 4 is 4 too many.
     
  13. razor1uk

    razor1uk Well-Known Member

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    #13 razor1uk, Apr 9, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2013
    If it had say a 1500hp or more engine it would've been better ...if they could have put a 801/802 on it...
    From what pics of seen, it was fairly elegant in its lines, but that pit framing, made the 109's look light and airey like bubbletop.
    But apart from its difficulty in taking off in the hotter weathered days in the Med, it was supposedly an fairly accurate bombing platform whence it got up, through to its target, and wiht that structural weight, a stable diver with possible dartlike fondness for the ground in lesser trained pilots hands.
     
  14. Bob_Semple_Airplane

    Bob_Semple_Airplane New Member

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    What about the Blackburn Botha? I think that was a very special type of plane (not in a good way).
     
  15. GregP

    GregP Well-Known Member

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    If we want athread on dangerous airplanes, we can start one. I will ...

    The Botha is special ...
     
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