Brewster buffalo Vs Curtiss P-36, Which one was better for defending Burma?

Shortround6 · Jan 12, 2020

Glider said:
And It would look a lot like a P40

tomo pauk said:
Exactly.

yep, a P-40F. funny how that happens

Just for information here is Curtiss production for 1940

Month,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Jan,,,,Feb,,,,March,,,,April,,,,,May,,,,,,,,June,,,,,July,,,,,,Aug,,,,,,Sept,,,,,,Oct,,,,,,,Nov,,,,,,Dec,,,,,,,total

H75/P-36,,,,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,,29,,,,,,77,,,,,,,,,,,83,,,,,,,,,,76,,,,,,,,,,,,,95,,,,,,,,,,91,,,,,,,14,,,,,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,16,,,,,,,,,,481
H81A/P-40,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,,,,11,,,,,,,,,,,,,25,,,,,,,,,56,,,,,,104,,,,,,114,,,,,,,,,135,,,,,,,,,168,,,,,165,,,,,,,,,778
CW-21/21B,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,3,,,,,,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,6,,,,,,,,,,,,,14,,,,,,,,4,,,,,,,,,,,,,27

In late 1940 and early 1941 every P-36 of whatever variety/modification built in a what-if scenario isoneless P-40 built.
Although that might not be a bad thing as well over 200 early P-40s had to have their Allisons removed and sent back to Allison for new crankshafts and crankcases in order to make original rated power and keep initial engine life.

Any schemes to replace the roughly 1300lb Allison (plus radiators) with an over 1900lb R-2600 need to take that into account. They also need to come with the engineering manpower to pull it off (what else does Curtiss not design/build) and then, despite the great rate of climb, how do you fight this plane with it's barn door radial (you won't get a look at the FW 190 for almost two years). The 1600hp R-2600 only made 1400hp at 11,500ft. (and with 91 octane it was 1400hp at 10,000ft)
Wright only built 443 of the 1700hp R-2600s in 1941 and about 340 of them were built in Nov-Dec. so any 1940 early 1941 R-2600 Hawk gets the lower powered engine.

Shortround6 · Jan 12, 2020

Gemhorse said:
Not many aircraft get known as "the world's worst fighter aircraft" but the Buffalo was consistently reputed as such, so the P-36 would likely have been an improvement for sure ~

One NZ pilot Geoff Fisken achieved seven victories in the Buffalo though, so I guess you can 'make a silk purse out of a sow's ear' ~

Must read that book 'Mohawks over Burma' though, looks a good read - Many thanks jet cal 1 , much appreciated ~

It might depend, give the Mohawks the same crappy rebuilt R-1820s the export Buffaloes got (the newer G200 engines seem to have been restricted from export at the critical time) and the Mohawk's reputation might have acquired a bit of tarnish.
ANd the poor armor and horsehide self sealing tank covering on the Buffaloes fuel tanks......oh......wait.........The Mohawks had niether unless modified in the field.

jetcal1 · Jan 13, 2020

Shortround6 said:
yep, a P-40F. funny how that happens

Just for information here is Curtiss production for 1940

Month,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Jan,,,,Feb,,,,March,,,,April,,,,,May,,,,,,,,June,,,,,July,,,,,,Aug,,,,,,Sept,,,,,,Oct,,,,,,,Nov,,,,,,Dec,,,,,,,total

H75/P-36,,,,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,,29,,,,,,77,,,,,,,,,,,83,,,,,,,,,,76,,,,,,,,,,,,,95,,,,,,,,,,91,,,,,,,14,,,,,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,16,,,,,,,,,,481
H81A/P-40,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,,,,11,,,,,,,,,,,,,25,,,,,,,,,56,,,,,,104,,,,,,114,,,,,,,,,135,,,,,,,,,168,,,,,165,,,,,,,,,778
CW-21/21B,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,3,,,,,,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,6,,,,,,,,,,,,,14,,,,,,,,4,,,,,,,,,,,,,27

In late 1940 and early 1941 every P-36 of whatever variety/modification built in a what-if scenario isoneless P-40 built.
Although that might not be a bad thing as well over 200 early P-40s had to have their Allisons removed and sent back to Allison for new crankshafts and crankcases in order to make original rated power and keep initial engine life.

Any schemes to replace the roughly 1300lb Allison (plus radiators) with an over 1900lb R-2600 need to take that into account. They also need to come with the engineering manpower to pull it off (what else does Curtiss not design/build) and then, despite the great rate of climb, how do you fight this plane with it's barn door radial (you won't get a look at the FW 190 for almost two years). The 1600hp R-2600 only made 1400hp at 11,500ft. (and with 91 octane it was 1400hp at 10,000ft)
Wright only built 443 of the 1700hp R-2600s in 1941 and about 340 of them were built in Nov-Dec. so any 1940 early 1941 R-2600 Hawk gets the lower powered engine.

The P-36 being built were probably existing orders for export. and........how much extra tooling and training would have been needed to convert those aircraft to a P-40? (Were enough engines even available?) And...for some countries, the export of a P-40 either might not have been allowed or a P-40 would have cost too much.

Gemhorse · Jan 13, 2020

The Mohawk was a design that eventually lead to a V-12 engine transplant, hence the arrival of the P-40, and in due course with the AVG ~

The chaps in Singapore had preferred the Hurricane to a Buffalo, so in defence of Burma I would approve the Mohawk in preference a Buffalo also -

The Buffalo's climb rate was pathetic, but it's main escape-from-combat technique was to dive, something they did as successfully as a brick, their more nimble Jap opponents unable to copy ~

I figure the Mohawk had more redeeming features than any Buffalo ~

Kevin J · Jan 13, 2020

MiTasol said:
Hi Graeme, I was looking for a HAL site listed on the wiki page but have since found another of the HAL sites, https://hal-india.co.in/Our History/M__111 , that does mention the Mohawk but does not mention the glider.

I think I had browsed the same wiki page as you provided and missed the glider as I was only looking at the history and for a company web page to link to.

The site mentions Vultee bomber production. Do they mean reassembly after shipping? Does anyone know any more about this?

Kevin J · Jan 13, 2020

jetcal1 said:
The P-36 being built were probably existing orders for export. and........how much extra tooling and training would have been needed to convert those aircraft to a P-40? (Were enough engines even available?) And...for some countries, the export of a P-40 either might not have been allowed or a P-40 would have cost too much.

The British viewed radials as better suited to tropical climates, that's why they ordered both.

MiTasol · Jan 13, 2020

Kevin J said:
The site mentions Vultee bomber production. Do they mean reassembly after shipping? Does anyone know any more about this?

Yes and the same with the Mohawk - by build do they mean from scratch, from CKD kits, or from crated fully built major assemblies?
Very vague

Kevin J · Jan 13, 2020

MiTasol said:
Yes and the same with the Mohawk - by build do they mean from scratch, from CKD kits, or from crated fully built major assemblies?
Very vague

The Vanguards were shipped in their packing cases, but they went to Karachi which is hundreds of miles away form Bangalore, Bombay is much closer.

Shortround6 · Jan 13, 2020

jetcal1 said:
The P-36 being built were probably existing orders for export. and........how much extra tooling and training would have been needed to convert those aircraft to a P-40? (Were enough engines even available?) And...for some countries, the export of a P-40 either might not have been allowed or a P-40 would have cost too much.

Kevin J said:
The British viewed radials as better suited to tropical climates, that's why they ordered both.

The British did NOT order any Mohawks, they inherited the French orders (and others?) as of July 1940. It didn't matter what the British thought about radials and tropical climates. It may have mattered as to where they sent them but they didn't order them.

It is highly doubtful that enough Allison's were available. Over 200 early Allisons had to go back to the factory and be rebuilt. One big reason the British even got Tomahawks (and the first ones are also ex-french) was that the American army agreed to delay deliveries of the last 324 of the initial order of 524 aircraft so deliveries of the Ex French and British orders could be expedited. In Sept 1940 there was a meeting between the Americans and the British to sort out a sort of joint specification for the P-40 and Tomahawk with few changes between the two for more efficient production. This resulted in the P-40B and the Tomahawk IIA. first one was not delivered until the spring of 1941.

Now while all of this was going on Curtiss was working on the XP-46 and in May of 1940 suggested to the Army that the same engine (the -39 Allison) be fitted to the P-40 airframe. This resulted in the P-40D flying in May of 1941. Curtiss may have been working on other things too but aside from scrapping the XP-46 project early where does the R&D manpower come from for other P-40 variants using engines that weren't used historically?

Kevin J · Jan 13, 2020

Shortround6 said:
The British did NOT order any Mohawks, they inherited the French orders (and others?) as of July 1940. It didn't matter what the British thought about radials and tropical climates. It may have mattered as to where they sent them but they didn't order them.

It is highly doubtful that enough Allison's were available. Over 200 early Allisons had to go back to the factory and be rebuilt. One big reason the British even got Tomahawks (and the first ones are also ex-french) was that the American army agreed to delay deliveries of the last 324 of the initial order of 524 aircraft so deliveries of the Ex French and British orders could be expedited. In Sept 1940 there was a meeting between the Americans and the British to sort out a sort of joint specification for the P-40 and Tomahawk with few changes between the two for more efficient production. This resulted in the P-40B and the Tomahawk IIA. first one was not delivered until the spring of 1941.

Now while all of this was going on Curtiss was working on the XP-46 and in May of 1940 suggested to the Army that the same engine (the -39 Allison) be fitted to the P-40 airframe. This resulted in the P-40D flying in May of 1941. Curtiss may have been working on other things too but aside from scrapping the XP-46 project early where does the R&D manpower come from for other P-40 variants using engines that weren't used historically?

I agree, but the British did order Buffaloes which looked technically better than Mohawks.

vikingBerserker · Jan 13, 2020

The Worlds Worst Fighter thingy is IMHO BS, it was an old fighter in a new war. It's still hard to dispute how well it did with the Finns.

jetcal1 · Jan 13, 2020

vikingBerserker said:
The Worlds Worst Fighter thingy is IMHO BS, it was an old fighter in a new war. It's still hard to dispute how well it did with the Finns.

Absolutely a great fighter until the exigencies of war forced little things like armor, self-sealing fuel tanks, real guns, etc.!
How many pre-war fighters actually made the grade and became great WWII fighters?

Lefa · Jan 13, 2020

The Finns used both P36 and F2A Brewster.
Finns Brewster had a Wright_R-1820-G5 Cyclone engine and P36 mainly Pratt & Whitney R-1830-SC-G Twin Wasp.
Because the Finns didn't have 100 octane gasoline, had a P36 top speed of about 450 km / h at 3000 meters, and Brewster top speed 480 km / h at 5000 meters.
The Finns liked P36 fighter "almost as good" as Brewster. Complaints mainly focused on the slow speed of the plane.

Shortround6 · Jan 13, 2020

Just for information here is Curtiss production for 1940 and adding Allison production.

Month,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Jan,,,,Feb,,,,March,,,,April,,,,,May,,,,,,,,June,,,,,July,,,,,,Aug,,,,,,Sept,,,,,,Oct,,,,,,,Nov,,,,,,Dec,,,,,,,total

H75/P-36,,,,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,,29,,,,,,77,,,,,,,,,,,83,,,,,,,,,,76,,,,,,,,,,,,,95,,,,,,,,,,91,,,,,,,14,,,,,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,16,,,,,,,,,,481
H81A/P-40,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,,,,11,,,,,,,,,,,,,25,,,,,,,,,56,,,,,,104,,,,,,114,,,,,,,,,135,,,,,,,,,168,,,,,165,,,,,,,,,778
CW-21/21B,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,3,,,,,,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,6,,,,,,,,,,,,,14,,,,,,,,4,,,,,,,,,,,,,27

Allison engs.,,,3,,,,,,,,,,,7,,,,,,,,,7,,,,,,,,,,,,7,,,,,,,,,,,,,14,,,,,,,,,,,,,30,,,,,,,,,73,,,,,,,65,,,,,,,,,223,,,,,,,,,286,,,,,,,,,175,,,,,259,,,,,,,,,1149

Please note that 1940 also the production of 13 Yp-39s, one Yp-37, eleven assorted YFM-1s, one YP-38 using Allison engines

Also completed in 1940 were
six P-64s
102 P-35A/EP-1s
two YP-43s
160 F2A,239 and 339 Brewsters
103 f4F/G-36A

wuzak · Jan 14, 2020

Shortround6 said:
Now while all of this was going on Curtiss was working on the XP-46 and in May of 1940 suggested to the Army that the same engine (the -39 Allison) be fitted to the P-40 airframe. This resulted in the P-40D flying in May of 1941. Curtiss may have been working on other things too but aside from scrapping the XP-46 project early where does the R&D manpower come from for other P-40 variants using engines that weren't used historically?

The XP-60 flew a week and a half before the XP-46, so they were working on that too.

Admiral Beez · Jan 14, 2020

Shortround6 said:
The British did NOT order any Mohawks,

Someone must have told Hindustan Aviation to construct theirs. Wasn't that a British order?

jetcal1 said:
How many pre-war fighters actually made the grade and became great WWII fighters?

Bf 109 and Spitfire come to mind.

Shortround6 · Jan 14, 2020

Admiral Beez said:
Someone must have told Hindustan Aviation to construct theirs. Wasn't that a British order?

Yes, no and maybe.

It depends on which sources you use/believe.

One account says that William D. Pawley had put together a deal with Curtiss and the Chinese for plant to erect aircraft from parts kits supplied by Curtiss (and others) and this was called CAMCO (Central AIrcraft Manufacturing Corporation). Curtiss supplied one pattern aircraft (H75A-5) and 54 parts kits for CAMCO to assemble in Loiwing China. In Oct 1940 the Japanese bombed the factory and the remaining equipment and parts were moved to Hengyang, then back to Loiwing and then to India. Pawley helps found (or joins?) Hindustan Aircraft Ltd. at Mysore. In April 1941 the 'contract' is changed to one from the British for 48 H75A-5 Hawks from Curtiss supplied parts. First aircraft was ready in the summer of 1942 and 5 may have actually been completed.

Now did the British really order Mohawks because they wanted them or were they presented with a "deal" in which Pawley and company show up in India with trucks loads (or train load?) of aircraft parts, engines and props at a time (winter of 1940/41) when the British (and the Empire) were desperately short of aircraft and needed anything that would fly (or almost anything).

India wound up with EX French Mohawks A-4s(The Mohawk IVs) the 4-5 Chinese/HAL A-5s and 9 ex Iranian A-9s (found in the crates when Britain and Russia took over Iran).
I have found no mention of what happened to the other parts/engines etc from the Chinese deal or the initial British contract with HAL. Or how many kits/engines were actually supplied to begin with. Full amount or only initial shipments?

So did the British really order the Mohawks or just agree to buy what somebody dumped in their driveway

GregP · Jan 14, 2020

Don't buy the mid-wing contributing a bit more maneuverability than the P-36 low wing. I might buy theoretically a bit less drag (worth maybe 10 mph) due to the mid-wing mount. In fact, the Buffalo may have been the slightly more maneuverable of the two, but not because of a mid-wing mounting. I believe the P-36 was a better airplane, easily. It climbed about 1/3 better and was the more successful type easily, discounting the Finnish experience, which was more about tactics and untrained Soviet opposition than the Buffalo. The Soviets never did overcome the Finnish tactics. I have spoken with people who flew the P-36 (about 5 of them), and they all preferred the P-36 to the P-40 because it was more maneuverable. The radial was mounted closer to the CG than the Allison and the P-36 would pitch quicker than the P-40.

It has its fans, but I consider the Buffalo to be the worst fighter produced by the U.S.A. in the WWII era. I doubt its potential for upgrade to the extent the basic P-36 airframe was upgradable. The landing geat was much more fragile than the P-36 landing gear, which was VERY strong. Recall the basic P-36 airframe eventually led to the XP-40Q, which would give a P-51D all it could handle. It is possible the Buffalo could have been as good, but I just cannot see it.

buffnut453 · Jan 14, 2020

Comparing the results of both the P-36 and the Buffalo in Finnish service removes as many variables as is humanly possible from the equation. The net result is that the Buffalo comes out significantly better than the P-36.

ssnider · Jan 14, 2020

GregP said:
Don't buy the mid-wing contributing a bit more maneuverability than the P-36 low wing. I might buy theoretically a bit less drag (worth maybe 10 mph) due to the mid-wing mount. In fact, the Buffalo may have been the slightly more maneuverable of the two, but not because of a mid-wing mounting. I believe the P-36 was a better airplane, easily. It climbed about 1/3 better and was the more successful type easily, discounting the Finnish experience, which was more about tactics and untrained Soviet opposition than the Buffalo. The Soviets never did overcome the Finnish tactics. I have spoken with people who flew the P-36 (about 5 of them), and they all preferred the P-36 to the P-40 because it was more maneuverable. The radial was mounted closer to the CG than the Allison and the P-36 would pitch quicker than the P-40.

It has its fans, but I consider the Buffalo to be the worst fighter produced by the U.S.A. in the WWII era. I doubt its potential for upgrade to the extent the basic P-36 airframe was upgradable. The landing geat was much more fragile than the P-36 landing gear, which was VERY strong. Recall the basic P-36 airframe eventually led to the XP-40Q, which would give a P-51D all it could handle. It is possible the Buffalo could have been as good, but I just cannot see it.

It seems the Neth4rlands Buffalos did a bit better than thier Hawk 35s as well.

Brewster buffalo Vs Curtiss P-36, Which one was better for defending Burma?

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