Brewster buffalo Vs Curtiss P-36, Which one was better for defending Burma?

[stoxm73]

They both used similar engines ranging 900-1200 hp

They both were armed with 0.50

The mid-wing on buffalo theologically contributing a bit more maneuvering capability than the low-wing on P-36

The buffalo looks rugger than P-36

The P-36 had an edge on power/mass and wing loading

So which one was more suitable for Burma defense?

 

[Admiral Beez]

P-36, AKA Mohawk. The early P-36 were about the same as the RAF's Buffalo as far as Malaya in 1941 goes, but the Mohawk has greater potential for widespread imperial service. Good info on potential here. For example, in 1942 Britain's Hindustan factory was producing the Mohawk.

And besides, the Mohawk looks better in RAF colours.

 

[MiTasol]

For example, in 1942 Britain's Hindustan factory was producing the Mohawk.

Very interesting but I can find nothing to confirm this any where including the company home page. Do you have a reference?

 

[Admiral Beez]

Very interesting but I can find nothing to confirm this any where including the company home page. Do you have a reference?

Nothing direct, but Wikipedia states below....

"In April 1941, the British government of India ordered 48 Cyclone-powered Mohawk IVz (Hawk 75A) for the RIAF, to be built by Hindustan Aircraft. The first such aircraft completed was test flown on 31 July 1942. However, only four additional aircraft were completed before the project was abandoned. The Indian-built series were used by RAF/RIAF units. Similarly, Chinese license production of the Hawk 75A-5 was moved to India, and these aircraft were also absorbed into RAF as Mohawk IVs."

I'd like to see the P-36 produced in Australia in the late 1930s as a nascent monoplane fighter for the RAAF and CAC. This will give Australia expertise useful into 1940-41 as they prepare to produce more advanced types. Perhaps the CAC Boomerang will be an advanced Mohawk with bubble (or easier to produce greenhouse) canopy, sort of a radial-powered Curtiss XP-40Q or the Caproni Vizzola F.5.

 

[Kevin J]

P-36, AKA Mohawk. The early P-36 were about the same as the RAF's Buffalo as far as Malaya in 1941 goes, but the Mohawk has greater potential for widespread imperial service. Good info on potential here. For example, in 1942 Britain's Hindustan factory was producing the Mohawk.

And besides, the Mohawk looks better in RAF colours.

I like the R-2600 proposal especially the time to 15000 feet and top speed. IIRC Grumman expected 350 mph out of their F4F and got 335, so I guess that a combat capable USN P-36 should achieve about 345 to 351 mph with the R-2600.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I like the R-2600 proposal....

An added benefit is that the R-2600 also powered the Vultee Vengeance then arriving in India, see below.

If both fighter and bomber use the same engine there a benefits on maintenance, parts and logistics.

 

[stoxm73]

P-36, AKA Mohawk. The early P-36 were about the same as the RAF's Buffalo as far as Malaya in 1941 goes, but the Mohawk has greater potential for widespread imperial service. Good info on potential here. For example, in 1942 Britain's Hindustan factory was producing the Mohawk.

And besides, the Mohawk looks better in RAF colours.

Thanks for the reply and link.

 

[tomo pauk]

I'd try with P-36, too. A no-nonsense aircraft, rolles and dives well if not excellent.
Want to up-engine it with a widely-available engine? Stick a Merlin on it.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I'd try with P-36, too. A no-nonsense aircraft, rolles and dives well if not excellent.
Want to up-engine it with a widely-available engine? Stick a Merlin on it.

Did India or Australia have access to Merlins? In the Australian case they seem to swap out any British engine with American ones.

 

[tomo pauk]

Did India or Australia have access to Merlins? In the Australian case they seem to swap out any British engine with American ones.

If we want a non-domestic engine, the Merlin might be a better choice than R-2600.

 

[Glider]

I'd try with P-36, too. A no-nonsense aircraft, rolles and dives well if not excellent.
Want to up-engine it with a widely-available engine? Stick a Merlin on it.

And It would look a lot like a P40

 

[tomo pauk]

And It would look a lot like a P40

Exactly.

 

[MiTasol]

Nothing direct, but Wikipedia states below....

"In April 1941, the British government of India ordered 48 Cyclone-powered Mohawk IVz (Hawk 75A) for the RIAF, to be built by Hindustan Aircraft. The first such aircraft completed was test flown on 31 July 1942. However, only four additional aircraft were completed before the project was abandoned. The Indian-built series were used by RAF/RIAF units. Similarly, Chinese license production of the Hawk 75A-5 was moved to India, and these aircraft were also absorbed into RAF as Mohawk IVs."

I'd like to see the P-36 produced in Australia in the late 1930s as a nascent monoplane fighter for the RAAF and CAC. This will give Australia expertise useful into 1940-41 as they prepare to produce more advanced types. Perhaps the CAC Boomerang will be an advanced Mohawk with bubble (or easier to produce greenhouse) canopy, sort of a radial-powered Curtiss XP-40Q or the Caproni Vizzola F.5.

Thank you. Wiki is notorious for errors but hopefully there is some truth behind these claims. Hopefully someone can provide further detail. I note that the Hindustan aircraft history site fails to mention the military transport glider they designed and built in 1942 so they could well have produced or assembled the P-36. 3 Indigenous made Gliders/Sailplane by HAL (hindustan Aeronautics),India - AerMech.IN

EDIT - I found a second HAL history site which does confirm the wiki article at https://hal-india.co.in/Our History/M__111

In Australia in 1941 the official policy was that Australia only needed two fighter squadrons and that did not change until December 23 1941, two weeks after the Prince of Wales and Repulse were sunk proving the foundations for the two fighter squadron policy were created in dreamtime.

If you read the whole file (Session expired | RecordSearch | National Archives of Australia ) you will find that the only "urgent" action being taken in that period was to obtain 9 additional Catalina flying boats.

If you go to ADF Serials - RAAF Series 2 you will see that those two squadrons of fighters were operating Hawker Demons. The RAAF's first modern fighters to arrive in Aus were the P-40s and the first of these was transferred from the USAAC 7th Pursuit Squadron to the RAAF on March 6th, 1942 followed closely by Beaufighters with the first arriving on 20th April 42.
The first RAAF Buffalos arrived on June 5th 42 and the first P-39s on 27 July 42.

Until the P-40s arrived the most potent "fighter" the RAAF operated was the Wirraway trainer, basically an early T-6 Texan/Harvard.

 

[Kevin J]

Did India or Australia have access to Merlins? In the Australian case they seem to swap out any British engine with American ones.

Except for the Hercules. The supply route from America is better. I'd go with the Americans.

 

[Kevin J]

Thank you. Wiki is notorious for errors but hopefully there is some truth behind these claims. Hopefully someone can provide further detail. I note that the Hindustan aircraft history site fails to mention the military transport glider they designed and built in 1942 so they could well have produced or assembled the P-36. 3 Indigenous made Gliders/Sailplane by HAL (hindustan Aeronautics),India - AerMech.IN

In Australia in 1941 the official policy was that Australia only needed two fighter squadrons and that did not change until December 23 1941, two weeks after the Prince of Wales and Repulse were sunk proving the foundations for the two fighter squadron policy were created in dreamtime.
View attachment 566524
If you read the whole file (Session expired | RecordSearch | National Archives of Australia ) you will find that the only "urgent" action being taken in that period was to obtain 9 additional Catalina flying boats.

If you go to ADF Serials - RAAF Series 2 you will see that those two squadrons of fighters were operating Hawker Demons. The RAAF's first modern fighters to arrive in Aus were the P-40s and the first of these was transferred from the USAAC 7th Pursuit Squadron to the RAAF on March 6th, 1942 followed closely by Beaufighters with the first arriving on 20th April 42.
The first RAAF Buffalos arrived on June 5th 42 and the first P-39s on 27 July 42.

Until the P-40s arrived the most potent "fighter" the RAAF operated was the Wirraway trainer, basically an early T-6 Texan/Harvard.

HAL became a maintenance facility. I'm sure their P-36 production experience came in handy as the primary American fighter in the CBI was the Warhawk.

 

[jetcal1]

I believe the question of Mohawk versus Buffalo had been answered until January 1944 when they were replaced.

 

[stoxm73]

I am thinking that whether some improvements on high-lift device, such as apply Fowler-flap, can significantly boost the maneuvering capability of these two.

Can the P-36 match in tight-turn of Zeke/Oscar after this kind of modification?

 

[Graeme]

I note that the Hindustan aircraft history site fails to mention the military transport glider they designed and built in 1942

G'day MiTasol.

Are you looking here?...

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited - Wikipedia

Scroll down just past half way...

 

[MiTasol]

G'day MiTasol.

Are you looking here?...

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited - Wikipedia

Scroll down just past half way...

Hi Graeme, I was looking for a HAL site listed on the wiki page but have since found another of the HAL sites, https://hal-india.co.in/Our History/M__111 , that does mention the Mohawk but does not mention the glider.

I think I had browsed the same wiki page as you provided and missed the glider as I was only looking at the history and for a company web page to link to.

 

[Gemhorse]

Not many aircraft get known as "the world's worst fighter aircraft" but the Buffalo was consistently reputed as such, so the P-36 would likely have been an improvement for sure ~

One NZ pilot Geoff Fisken achieved seven victories in the Buffalo though, so I guess you can 'make a silk purse out of a sow's ear' ~

Must read that book 'Mohawks over Burma' though, looks a good read - Many thanks jet cal 1 , much appreciated ~