Brewster Buffalo vs. Morane-Saulnier M.S.406

[Seppo]

Aid from France to Finland in the Russo-Finnish Winter War

Aid from France to Finland made a large and significant contribution to Finland's defence in the Russo-Finnish Winter War

www.alternativefinland.com

Unfortunately that is an alternative history site that mixes fact and fiction.

According to other sources the M.S.406 was one of the most agile monoplane fighters Finland had, but it was not a stabile shooting platform, had poor climbing performance and the armament was unreliable.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Unfortunately that is an alternative history site that mixes fact and fiction.

That site IS NOT an alternate history site if you READ the article posted. So tell us, what is fact and what is fiction and what are YOUR sources?

According to other sources the M.S.406 was one of the most agile monoplane fighters Finland had, but it was not a stabile shooting platform, had poor climbing performance and the armament was unreliable.

I believe some of those issues are mentioned. If you READ the past few posts there was a discussion on when aircraft were delivered to Finland, their numbers and their condition. There is nothing fictional there.

 

[Vincenzo]

That statement came from a Finnish site.

yes, and this the point how is reliable that site...

 

[FLYBOYJ]

yes, and this the point how is reliable that site...

I checked the sources with regards to the subject we were talking about - the delivery and operational dates of Finnish MS.406 and they are accurate as well as some of the pilot information. I believe that reference to lend lease was made with regards to nations other than the US

 

[elbmc1969]

As far as the OP's question - I think the British B339Es were slightly superior to the MS.406 as originally supplied by the French. Combat scenarios and theater of operations would have to be considered as well as pilot skill. The modified MS.406s were superior (at least on paper) to all mentioned.

The big advantage of operating M.S.406s in Finland was the cold climate helping with the horrible radiator problems. You could retract the radiator at a lower speed and it took longer for the engine to overheat at full power with the radiator retracted ... The big problem of operating the M.S.406s in SEA was the very hot climate ...

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The big advantage of operating M.S.406s in Finland was the cold climate helping with the horrible radiator problems. You could retract the radiator at a lower speed and it took longer for the engine to overheat at full power with the radiator retracted ... The big problem of operating the M.S.406s in SEA was the very hot climate ...

Agree

 

[Juha3]

Mörkö-Morane, the MS-406 modified by Finns was powered by war-booty (most of them got from Germany in 1944) Soviet 1 100 hp Klimov M-105Ps not "by the Finnish-manufactured license built Hispano-Suiza HS12Ys". First flight in February 1943, initially there were cooling problems and because Finns did not have enough M-105Ps, the project was not a top priority one. But when Finns by accident learnt that Germans had in East-Prussia surplus M-105P/PP and PA engines Finns ordered 85 of them on 23 Nov. 1943. When they arrived in Feb. 1944 there were 29 flight-ready and 33 not flight ready M-105PPs and 34 condition class III (whatever that means) M-105Ps. Finns also had overhauled their own war-booty M-105PAs and PFS. So now they had engines for serial modifications. The test flights of the first proto ended in June 1944 and it was handed over to the Fighter Sqn 28 on 8 July 1944, the 2nd proto followed on 25 July. In August 4 planes were handed over and at the end of 1944 the FiAF had 17 Mörkö-Moranes (at least one was lost in combat by then). Its max speed in test flights varied between 490 and 510 km/h TAS. In test flights after overhauls max speed was 490-500 km/h when with normal MS-406s it was around 430 km/h TAS, variation was large but the best achieved was 450 km/h.
Sources Jukka Raunio, Lentäjän näkökulma II (1993) and Jukka Raunio, Valtion Lentokonetehtaan Historia Osa 2: Tampereella ja sodissa 1933-1944 (2007).

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Mörkö-Morane, the MS-406 modified by Finns was powered by war-booty (most of them got from Germany in 1944) Soviet 1 100 hp Klimov M-105Ps not "by the Finnish-manufactured license built Hispano-Suiza HS12Ys". First flight in February 1943, initially there were cooling problems and because Finns did not have enough M-105Ps, the project was not a top priority one. But when Finns by accident learnt that Germans had in East-Prussia surplus M-105P/PP and PA engines Finns ordered 85 of them on 23 Nov. 1943. When they arrived in Feb. 1944 there were 29 flight-ready and 33 not flight ready M-105PPs and 34 condition class III (whatever that means) M-105Ps. Finns also had overhauled their own war-booty M-105PAs and PFS. So now they had engines for serial modifications. The test flights of the first proto ended in June 1944 and it was handed over to the Fighter Sqn 28 on 8 July 1944, the 2nd proto followed on 25 July. In August 4 planes were handed over and at the end of 1944 the FiAF had 17 Mörkö-Moranes (at least one was lost in combat by then). Its max speed in test flights varied between 490 and 510 km/h TAS. In test flights after overhauls max speed was 490-500 km/h when with normal MS-406s it was around 430 km/h TAS, variation was large but the best achieved was 450 km/h.
Sources Jukka Raunio, Lentäjän näkökulma II (1993) and Jukka Raunio, Valtion Lentokonetehtaan Historia Osa 2: Tampereella ja sodissa 1933-1944 (2007).

Thanks for the clarification Juha, if anyone was going to have information on this it would be you!

 

[taly01]

American lend-lease supplies to Finland from mid-43???

That statement came from a Finnish site.

Oh... that sight is a "alternative" fantasy history site, its mixes up real facts with "alternative" fantasies, like Potez 630, Heinkel 112 and Westland Whirlwind squadrons serving in Finland 1940! ........ and etc etc : D

Alternative Finland

All Things Finland for the Visitor

www.alternativefinland.com

Its rather infuriating as the real facts he has are great, but then gets mixed with the fantasy stuff.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Oh... that sight is a "alternative" fantasy history site, its mixes up real facts with "alternative" fantasies, like Potez 630, Heinkel 112 and Westland Whirlwind squadrons serving in Finland 1940! ........ and etc etc : D

Alternative Finland

All Things Finland for the Visitor

www.alternativefinland.com

Its rather infuriating as the real facts he has are great, but then gets mixed with the fantasy stuff.

Yes, saw that, but there were some good references there but then they go into fantasy land!

 

[Timppa]

Its rather infuriating as the real facts he has are great, but then gets mixed with the fantasy stuff.

Well isn't it the gist of "alternative history" ?
What is more disturbing that some posters believe it. After all even the Wikipedia article of Finnish Mörkö-Morane is quite good.

Morane-Saulnier M.S.406 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Well isn't it the gist of "alternative history" ?
What is more disturbing that some posters believe it. After all even the Wikipedia article of Finnish Mörkö-Morane is quite good.

Morane-Saulnier M.S.406 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

According to references in Wiki, Finland received aircraft in February 1940, referenced "Neulen, Hans Werner. In the Skies of Europe: Air Forces Allied to the Luftwaffe 1939–1945. Ramsbury, Marlborough, UK: The Crowood Press, 2000." Is this not true?

 

[Timppa]

According to references in Wiki, Finland received aircraft in February 1940, referenced "Neulen, Hans Werner. In the Skies of Europe: Air Forces Allied to the Luftwaffe 1939–1945. Ramsbury, Marlborough, UK: The Crowood Press, 2000." Is this not true?

French donated 50 Moranes in the Winter War, 30 received. 14 victories with one loss in that war.
Source: Jukka Raunio, Lentäjän näkökulma II

 

[FLYBOYJ]

French donated 50 Moranes in the Winter War, 30 received. 14 victories with one loss in that war.
Source: Jukka Raunio, Lentäjän näkökulma II

And my point is these aircraft did not have "tired" or "run out" engines when delivered from what these sources show. IIRC MS.406 production ended in May, 1940 so I believe these aircraft may have been new when delivered.

 

[Juha3]

Thanks for the clarification Juha, if anyone was going to have information on this it would be you!

Thanks a lot for your nice words, there are also some others here who have good info on the FiAF!
Nice if I could be of help. I have received a lot of information from this site, especially from the technical side of things. IMHO the main reason d'etre of this kind of sites is to share information.

 

[GrumpyOldCrewChief]

A big point of this site IS to share information, but we all must be careful to clearly separate facts from fantasy. "I wanna make it so" only has so far to go, when actual facts are the point in question! And "what if" is a wonderful game to play, and we all do it for something or other, but usually we are pretty good at keeping the real stuff differentiated from the fantasy!