Brewster Buffalo vs. Morane-Saulnier M.S.406

[Admiral Beez]

The Vichy French air force in FIC operated the Morane-Saulnier M.S.406. Had Britain made an Ironclad-like move onto FIC, how does the RAF Brewster Buffalo compare with the 406?

 

[Denniss]

The Finns may have more to say on this as they flew both

 

[Admiral Beez]

The Finns may have more to say on this as they flew both

The Finns seem to have done well with the MS.406. Per Wikipedia they received eighty-eight MS.406, with which they shot down 121 Soviet aircraft for 15 losses. Wikipedia describes how one aircraft was converted to a Klimov M-105 and was 64 km/h (40 mph; 35 kn) faster than the original French version. Though I expect the French engines were rather worn out by then. Per Wikipedia, the Finns scored even higher with their forty-four Buffaloes, claiming 477 Soviet Air Force warplanes destroyed for just 19 losses. The mods are interesting, such as the Finns reversing the piston rings on the Buffalos' engines.

Perhaps the Finns are not the ideal comparison of the two aircraft though, since they could probably defeat the latest Lavochkin La-7 with either a Buffalo or MS.406.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The Finns seem to have done well with the MS.406. Per Wikipedia they received eighty-eight MS.406, with which they shot down 121 Soviet aircraft for 15 losses. Wikipedia describes how one aircraft was converted to a Klimov M-105 and was 64 km/h (40 mph; 35 kn) faster than the original French version. Though I expect the French engines were rather worn out by then. Per Wikipedia, the Finns scored even higher with their forty-four Buffaloes, claiming 477 Soviet Air Force warplanes destroyed for just 19 losses. The mods are interesting, such as the Finns reversing the piston rings on the Buffalos' engines.

Perhaps the Finns are not the ideal comparison of the two aircraft though, since they could probably defeat the latest Lavochkin La-7 with either a Buffalo or MS.406.

Why? There is nothing to indicate that these engines were run out. in fact there is nothing that I've seen to suggest these aircraft were "used."

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The Vichy French air force in FIC operated the Morane-Saulnier M.S.406. Had Britain made an Ironclad-like move onto FIC, how does the RAF Brewster Buffalo compare with the 406?

Where is it being operated and by who?

 

[Greg Boeser]

The Vichy Air Force in Indochina had Moranes initially ordered by China, but delivery had been blocked by Japan. They were not armed with the nose cannon due to Japanese interference. In early 1942, three were "accidently" (Honest, Guv!) shot down by Ki-27s of the 84th Indepenent Chutai.

 

[Timppa]

The Finns may have more to say on this as they flew both

Finns had B-239, which was about 500lb lighter (empty weight) than the british B339E.
Still I would say that B339E was better than MS406 in many ways.

 

[Shortround6]

Engine in the B-239 was less powerful, prop was smaller than the B339E.

 

[elbmc1969]

Why? There is nothing to indicate that these engines were run out. in fact there is nothing that I've seen to suggest these aircraft were "used."

By May 1940, few of the M.S.406s were operating at full efficiency because the engines had too many hours on them. The French had expected to replace the 406s by then, but there were delays in the other projects, especially the MB.150 series, which was a disaster. Too few spare engines had been ordered for the M.S.406s in the first place (a consistent failing) and additional engines weren't ordered because the 406s were expected to retire soon and production capacity was directed to other projects.

After several years of routine operations, and given the difficulties of getting spare parts on the opposite side of the globe, yeah, the engines probably were not in perfect working order.

See Greg Baugher's The Rise and Fall of the French Air Force for some background.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

By May 1940, few of the M.S.406s were operating at full efficiency because the engines had too many hours on them. The French had expected to replace the 406s by then, but there were delays in the other projects, especially the MB.150 series, which was a disaster. Too few spare engines had been ordered for the M.S.406s in the first place (a consistent failing) and additional engines weren't ordered because the 406s were expected to retire soon and production capacity was directed to other projects.

After several years of routine operations, and given the difficulties of getting spare parts on the opposite side of the globe, yeah, the engines probably were not in perfect working order.

See Greg Baugher's The Rise and Fall of the French Air Force for some background.

Again, I see no indication to show if these aircraft were "used." The Finns took initial delivery of these aircraft in February 1940. Unless you have specifics (engine hours) you're speculating about this.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

"While the French Government discussed aid from France to Finland, tangible results were slow to eventuate. The first substantial aid to arrive from France was a shipment of thirty Morane-Saulnier fighters. France had promised 50 of these first-rate fighter aircraft but initially only 30 were sent (the remaining 20 were in fact never sent). They were shipped to Sweden and assembled by French mechanics at AB Aerotransport's facilities at Bulltofta airfield at Malmö, Sweden. The aircraft were flown from Sweden to Finland between 4 and 29 Feb, 1940 where they entered service immediately."

Aid from France to Finland in the Russo-Finnish Winter War

Aid from France to Finland made a large and significant contribution to Finland's defence in the Russo-Finnish Winter War

www.alternativefinland.com

 

[FLYBOYJ]

More on this...

With the fall of France, the twenty remaining MS 406s of the fifty promised would not be delivered. However, despite the ill-feeling between the two countries that had resulted from the Helsinki Convoy and the seizure of the Finnmark, Germany would go on to trade 45 MS 406's and 11 MS 410's between 1941 and 1942 for payment in Nickel, which Finland continued to sell or trade to Germany up until the declaration of war in April 1944. By this point the fighters were hopelessly outdated, but until American lend-lease supplies started to flow in mid-1943, the Finns continued to be desperate for serviceable aircraft. Their own aircraft production remained limited and while the aircraft that were produced in Finland were superbly capable and of high quality, there were limits on Finnish industrial capacity which, simply, could not be exceeded. The Finns continued to acquire what they could – and with the MS 406's / 410's, they decided to start a modification program to bring all of their examples to a new standard. Powered by the Finnish-manufactured license built Hispano-Suiza HS12Y engines of 1,100 hp (820 kW) with a fully adjustable propeller, the airframe required some local strengthening and also gained a new and more aerodynamic engine cowling. These changes boosted the speed to 326 mph (525 km/h). Other changes included a new oil cooler, the use of four belt-fed machineguns and the excellent license-built HS 20mm cannon in the engine mounting. Work on the modifications had begun almost as soon as the Winter War had ended and the prototype of the modified fighter, the MS-631, made its first flight on 25 January 1941. The results were startling: the aircraft was 40 km/h (25 mph) faster than the original French version, and the service ceiling was increased from 10,000 to 12,000 m (32,800 to 39,360 ft). Conversion work proceeded as quickly as could be achieved and by late 1942, all surviving Morane-Saulnier's had been converted. They would however be relegated to the Ilmavoimat Reserve by mid-1944 and would not see combat against the Luftwaffe.

 

[Greg Boeser]

How many of these tricked out MS 406s made it to French Indochina?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

How many of these tricked out MS 406s made it to French Indochina?

Here's a good piece on the French in Indochina

French Air Forces in the Pacific War

 

[Vincenzo]

More on this...

but until American lend-lease supplies started to flow in mid-1943, the Finns continued to be desperate for serviceable aircraft.

American lend-lease supplies to Finland from mid-43???

 

[FLYBOYJ]

American lend-lease supplies to Finland from mid-43???

That statement came from a Finnish site.

 

[Greg Boeser]

Sunderland and Canwell, Vichy Air Force at War, puts French Indochinese Air Force Morane strength at 19 in June 1941, split evenly between Escadrille 2/595 and Esc2/596, and the repair pool. These had been originally ordered by China, but had been impounded, along with three Potez 631Cs, due to Japanese diplomatic pressure. They were not armed with the nose cannon, having only the wing MGs. Lack of spare parts forced the French to disband Esc2/596, consolidating the remaining serviceable aircraft in Esc2/595. Three of these were shot down in a "friendly fire" incident on 27 Jan, 1942, when three or four Ki-27s of the 84th Independent Chutai mistook three Moranes for AVG Hawk 81s, killing one pilot and wounding another.
But getting back to the OP's question, one must ask, just when would the British try to seize French Indochina? Certainly not after the war with Japan had broken out. By then it was too late. Japan had already forced the French to accept Japan's virtual control of Indochina since September 1940. So any move against Indochina would provoke war with Japan.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Japan had already forced the French to accept Japan's virtual control of Indochina since September 1940. So any move against Indochina would provoke war with Japan.

A war between Vichy France and Japan in Sept 1940 would have been an odd thing for Germany to work with.

 

[Greg Boeser]

There were skirmishes in late 1940 between the Japanese forces occupying the Tonkin region and the French, but these were quickly quelled. After that, the Vichy government accepted their de facto position as Japanese puppets.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

As far as the OP's question - I think the British B339Es were slightly superior to the MS.406 as originally supplied by the French. Combat scenarios and theater of operations would have to be considered as well as pilot skill. The modified MS.406s were superior (at least on paper) to all mentioned.