Sakai Saburo Vs Sugita Sho-ichi

[CHen10]

Sugita Sho-ichi 杉田庄一

Sakai Saburo 坂井三郎

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

I personally disagree here. Sugita criticised Sakai's story with logic and his own experience. He is entitled to say his view since he isn't just saying it's a lie for no reason. He explains his view. It can come across as insensitive, but for me, he is entitled to say it.

As for my opinion, I am somewhere in the middle. I do believe Sakai may have misremembered some of the events due to trauma but I also believe Sugita is incorrect for calling it a complete lie. So I agree with Sakai that the event definitely happened, but I agree with Sugita in that some parts sound too far fetched

I don't agree with calling anyone a liar unless I have ironclad evidence, and I don't think highly of anyone who does so. When some parts sound far-fetched, call them that rather than lies.

 

[CHen10]

I don't agree with calling anyone a liar unless I have ironclad evidence, and I don't think highly of anyone who does so. When some parts sound far-fetched, call them that rather than lies.

I guess we have to agree to disagree. I think incredibly highly of Sugita due to his kind personality and superb combat skills.

 

[tyrodtom]

As

I guess we have to agree to disagree. I think incredibly highly of Sugita due to his kind personality and superb combat skills.

So you're judging someone's personality on a translation of what they wrote ?

 

[AerialTorpedoDude69]

I guess we have to agree to disagree. I think incredibly highly of Sugita due to his kind personality and superb combat skills.

Sugita was rare among Japanese pilots. Unusual in skill and also combative and disrespectful to someone who was older.

It's good to hear from you as well. Great post, by the way.

There was a movie made which was loosely based on his life called "Zero Fighter" which is a fairly good film. It was not a jingoistic piece of trash like Eternal Zero (AKA "The Fighter Pilot") (which IMO is a shocking and inexcusable film, given Japan's anti-war constitution).


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nk564qtzL0

EDIT: That Youtube clip clearly says that the name of the film is "The Sky's Samurai" so I don't know where they got the name "Zero Fighter" from.

Thanks for the link to the documentary on Sakai, I'm looking forward to watching it soon. Also thank you for the reference to 祖父たちの零戦 "our grandpa's zero sen". I have access to an AI translator (which doesn't do well with vertical, right-to-left languages) which can retain formatting and overlay text onto the PDF if that's available. Or do you read Japanese?

T tyrodtom the people who flew with Sugita had high praise for him. One student explained that Sugita's instruction method was very easy to understand and that without him, he would have died. The other instructors were less able to communicate complex flight ideas

One more thing, regarding Sakai's probable PTSD and TBI (which are both related conditions as TBI causes PTSD): Many Japanese instructors punched students in the face and head. So there were likely a higher number of TBIs among Japanese pilots in general. The fact that Sugita did not use violence as punctuation on lessons is also the reason why his students tended to learn his lessons more effectively.

 

[tyrodtom]

Sugita was rare among Japanese pilots. Unusual in skill and also combative and disrespectful to someone who was older.

It's good to hear from you as well. Great post, by the way.

There was a movie made which was loosely based on his life called "Zero Fighter" which is a fairly good film. It was not a jingoistic piece of trash like Eternal Zero (AKA "The Fighter Pilot") (which IMO is a shocking and inexcusable film, given Japan's anti-war constitution).


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nk564qtzL0

EDIT: That Youtube clip clearly says that the name of the film is "The Sky's Samurai" so I don't know where they got the name "Zero Fighter" from.

Thanks for the link to the documentary on Sakai, I'm looking forward to watching it soon. Also thank you for the reference to 祖父たちの零戦 "our grandpa's zero sen". I have access to an AI translator (which doesn't do well with vertical, right-to-left languages) which can retain formatting and overlay text onto the PDF if that's available. Or do you read Japanese?

T tyrodtom the people who flew with Sugita had high praise for him. One student explained that Sugita's instruction method was very easy to understand and that without him, he would have died. The other instructors were less able to communicate complex flight ideas

One more thing, regarding Sakai's probable PTSD and TBI (which are both related conditions as TBI causes PTSD): Many Japanese instructors punched students in the face and head. So there were likely a higher number of TBIs among Japanese pilots in general. The fact that Sugita did not use violence as punctuation on lessons is also the reason why his students tended to learn his lessons more effectively.

I'll have to agree on flight instructors, I had several different flight instructors during my WOC flight training .
They were all fresh from Vietnam, maybe some suffering from PTSD also, and some insisted that teaching new helicopter pilots was more hazardous than flying in combat.
Myself I reacted better to the calm approach. I did have one instructor yell " you trying to kill me Hodges?" Like he didn't seem to remember I was in it with him.

 

[CHen10]

As

So you're judging someone's personality on a translation of what they wrote ?

Sugita's personality is well known from books and so I'm judging his personality from what the books say.

 

[CHen10]

Also thank you for the reference to 祖父たちの零戦 "our grandpa's zero sen". I have access to an AI translator (which doesn't do well with vertical, right-to-left languages) which can retain formatting and overlay text onto the PDF if that's available. Or do you read Japanese?

I can read Japanese Kanji since it's basically the same as Chinese and Chinese is my second language. (See the reference in my username) However for Katakana or Hiragana, I have a friend in real life who is fluent in Japanese so he sometimes helps with Katakana or Hiragana if the text is vertical but normally I use an AI translator if the Hiragana or Katakana text is left to right.

There was a movie made which was loosely based on his life called "Zero Fighter" which is a fairly good film. It was not a jingoistic piece of trash like Eternal Zero (AKA "The Fighter Pilot") (which IMO is a shocking and inexcusable film, given Japan's anti-war constitution).


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nk564qtzL0

EDIT: That Youtube clip clearly says that the name of the film is "The Sky's Samurai" so I don't know where they got the name "Zero Fighter" from.

I have heard of that film but I can't seem to find the full film online.

 

[AerialTorpedoDude69]

I can read Japanese Kanji since it's basically the same as Chinese and Chinese is my second language. (See the reference in my username) However for Katakana or Hiragana, I have a friend in real life who is fluent in Japanese so he sometimes helps with Katakana or Hiragana if the text is vertical but normally I use an AI translator if the Hiragana or Katakana text is left to right.



I have heard of that film but I can't seem to find the full film online.

I made a mistake, that film is about Saburo Sakai. Here's the full film:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKKwAqwpMUE

The film about Sugita is far less known because the pilot's name is changed to Hamada. I also can't find the English translation anywhere.

The film I'm thinking of is 100% "Zerosen Moyu" (零戦もゆ) which has a similar name. The name loosely translates as "Zero Fighter Burning".

Here's the trailer:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YLM78rGSQo

The character in the film who is supposed to be Sho-ichi Sugita is Hamada. I believe the script writer made substantial changes from the original book that the movie was based on. For example, Hamada disliked the Shiden Kai and instead decided to fly the Zero when struck from behind by Hellcats while taking off.

Amazon Japan streams this video and it can be found on various (potential illegal) outlets online for streaming.

Watch 零戦燃ゆ | Prime Video

第二次世界大戦で活躍した帝国海軍の名機

www.amazon.co.jp

 

[CHen10]

I made a mistake, that film is about Saburo Sakai. Here's the full film:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKKwAqwpMUE

The film about Sugita is far less known because the pilot's name is changed to Hamada. I also can't find the English translation anywhere.

The film I'm thinking of is 100% "Zerosen Moyu" (零戦もゆ) which has a similar name. The name loosely translates as "Zero Fighter Burning".

Here's the trailer:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YLM78rGSQo

The character in the film who is supposed to be Sho-ichi Sugita is Hamada. I believe the script writer made substantial changes from the original book that the movie was based on. For example, Hamada disliked the Shiden Kai and instead decided to fly the Zero when struck from behind by Hellcats while taking off.

Amazon Japan streams this video and it can be found on various (potential illegal) outlets online for streaming.

Watch 零戦燃ゆ | Prime Video

第二次世界大戦で活躍した帝国海軍の名機

www.amazon.co.jp

Really cool. Before I could only find the Sakai film in Arabic.

I think the Sugita film rings a bell. Would you consider the Sugita film historically accurate?

 

[AerialTorpedoDude69]

Really cool. Before I could only find the Sakai film in Arabic.

I think the Sugita film rings a bell. Would you consider the Sugita film historically accurate?

It borrows many things from Sugita's life, including the beautiful wife, the ill-fated Yamamoto escort mission, his getting shot down and burned by a Corsair, and more. But it takes huge liberties with history by overlaying a story about an insane man who loved the Zero fighter more than his drop-dead gorgeous wife. Because of that, I gotta say it's not historically accurate, although Sugita did basically commit suicide in an aircraft and he did have a beautiful wife. But I haven't seen it in like 15 years. From what I remember, it did have the correct general information on the various campaigns that were being fought.

I could not find any synopsis in Japanese which connected the character of Hamada with Sugita. So it appears that this relationship is not well know.

 

[CHen10]

It borrows many things from Sugita's life, including the beautiful wife, the ill-fated Yamamoto escort mission, his getting shot down and burned by a Corsair, and more. But it takes huge liberties with history by overlaying a story about an insane man who loved the Zero fighter more than his drop-dead gorgeous wife. Because of that, I gotta say it's not historically accurate, although Sugita did basically commit suicide in an aircraft and he did have a beautiful wife. But I haven't seen it in like 15 years. From what I remember, it did have the correct general information on the various campaigns that were being fought.

I could not find any synopsis in Japanese which connected the character of Hamada with Sugita. So it appears that this relationship is not well know.

Am I correct in saying there's a film which includes the part where Yanagiya Kenji has his hand shot off? He was part of the 204 Kokutai like Sugita so I was wondering if the part with Yanagiya was in the Sugita film? They were both on the Yamamoto escort mission too.

 

[AerialTorpedoDude69]

Am I correct in saying there's a film which includes the part where Yanagiya Kenji has his hand shot off? He was part of the 204 Kokutai like Sugita so I was wondering if the part with Yanagiya was in the Sugita film? They were both on the Yamamoto escort mission too.

Yanagiya lost his hand in a later mission, not in Operation Vengeance. Although I think his wounding was not long after they lost Yamamoto. But you were probably asking about how the 204th was portrayed.

Regarding the historical details of that mission it has some weird things in it. Like it gets the exact number of P-38 Lightnings right (16), but it moves Yamamoto's wound from the left shoulder to the right and it didn't depict the head shot. But it has the correct time sequence from getting shot to hitting the canopy at around 20 seconds. Someone did their research although it contained biases and disinformation that were common at the time, probably caused by the Japanese military's propaganda campaign regarding Yamamoto's death.

There's a scene that you might be looking for where the pilots of the failed escort mission are shown as seeking redemption. The director doesn't do a good job of shooting this segment and it virtually fast-forwards through the death scenes of multiple pilots. It's hard to tell exactly what's happening, but one pilot does indeed get shot in the right hand, although it doesn't show the hand being amputated. Nor does it show Wildcats doing the shooting. It's an odd sequence because it only shows Zero with their guns blazing.

 

[CHen10]

Yanagiya lost his hand in a later mission, not in Operation Vengeance. Although I think his wounding was not long after they lost Yamamoto. But you were probably asking about how the 204th was portrayed.

Regarding the historical details of that mission it has some weird things in it. Like it gets the exact number of P-38 Lightnings right (16), but it moves Yamamoto's wound from the left shoulder to the right and it didn't depict the head shot. But it has the correct time sequence from getting shot to hitting the canopy at around 20 seconds. Someone did their research although it contained biases and disinformation that were common at the time, probably caused by the Japanese military's propaganda campaign regarding Yamamoto's death.

There's a scene that you might be looking for where the pilots of the failed escort mission are shown as seeking redemption. The director doesn't do a good job of shooting this segment and it virtually fast-forwards through the death scenes of multiple pilots. It's hard to tell exactly what's happening, but one pilot does indeed get shot in the right hand, although it doesn't show the hand being amputated. Nor does it show Wildcats doing the shooting. It's an odd sequence because it only shows Zero with their guns blazing.

Yanagiya had his hand shot off by Wildcats on 7 June 1943 so 2 months after the Yamamoto escort mission.

I vaguely remember a scene where Yanagiya was in the cockpit of his Zero with a face of incredible pain after his hand was shot on 7 June 1943 and wondered if it was from the same film as the Sugita film. It probably is since you mentioned it describes the fate of the escort pilots.

Also on the Yamamoto escort mission was Hidaka Yoshimi and he was killed on 7 June 1943 (same day Yanagiya got his hand shot) and Hidaka had an official score of 20 victories. Just 8 less than Sakai. This is quite interesting since despite having a high score of 20 he is not very well known.

 

[AerialTorpedoDude69]

Yanagiya had his hand shot off by Wildcats on 7 June 1943 so 2 months after the Yamamoto escort mission.

I vaguely remember a scene where Yanagiya was in the cockpit of his Zero with a face of incredible pain after his hand was shot on 7 June 1943 and wondered if it was from the same film as the Sugita film. It probably is since you mentioned it describes the fate of the escort pilots.

Also on the Yamamoto escort mission was Hidaka Yoshimi and he was killed on 7 June 1943 (same day Yanagiya got his hand shot) and Hidaka had an official score of 20 victories. Just 8 less than Sakai. This is quite interesting since despite having a high score of 20 he is not very well known.

All the characters in the movie, with the exception of Yamamoto and maybe a couple others, had their names changed for some reason. Yanagiya definitely wasn't named in the film. If you are curious, you can find the English SRT subtitle file and then edit it in a text editor. I control-F'd for subjects that we are speaking of and "Shiden" wasn't mentioned and neither was "Yanagiya".

I believe that there are a few other films that portray the assassination, such as the biopic on Yamamoto (in 2011) but I can't think of any which depict Yanagiya. It might be the film you are thinking of.

 

[CHen10]

All the characters in the movie, with the exception of Yamamoto and maybe a couple others, had their names changed for some reason. Yanagiya definitely wasn't named in the film. If you are curious, you can find the English SRT subtitle file and then edit it in a text editor. I control-F'd for subjects that we are speaking of and "Shiden" wasn't mentioned and neither was "Yanagiya".

I believe that there are a few other films that portray the assassination, such as the biopic on Yamamoto (in 2011) but I can't think of any which depict Yanagiya. It might be the film you are thinking of.

If I find the scene with Yanagiya I'll try and post a screenshot here

 

[tyrodtom]

I wonder why you would characterize the shooting down of Admiral Yamamoto as an assassination?
Since the beginning of warfare it's always a top goal to kill your opponents leadership, just because you catch them unprepared doesn't make it an assassination .

Even when kings were present on the battlefield, any able commander lower down in the hierarchy made sure that king was well guarded.

 

[AerialTorpedoDude69]

CHen10 I'm trying to upload the scene here
View: https://imgur.com/a/lPQaTDY

It's just a GIF. Let me know if it doesn't render properly.

T tyrodtom Yes, I see what you mean. So, to clarify, "assassination" is the accepted language used on Wikipedia and by academic sources. Up until Suleimani/Soleimani was assassinated, Yamamoto was the last adversary to have been assassinated in a targeted killing. The term "assassination" has political implications that I am not trying to invoke.

assassination

1. the murder of someone famous or important: 2. the murder of someone famous…

dictionary.cambridge.org

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

I wonder why you would characterize the shooting down of Admiral Yamamoto as an assassination?
Since the beginning of warfare it's always a top goal to kill your opponents leadership, just because you catch them unprepared doesn't make it an assassination .

Even when kings were present on the battlefield, any able commander lower down in the hierarchy made sure that king was well guarded.

I think of it as an assassination. It was a plan to carry out a targeted killing of an individual. In wartime against a military leader, he's fair game, sure, and they used military equipment to kill him. It wasn't his unawareness that made it an assassination, it was the targeted and detailed planning.

In wartime against an enemy leader, I don't attach opprobrium to the word "assassination" as I would in civil life, because we have laws against murder in civil life but encourage killing the enemy by any means necessary. One is foul play, the other's a fact of life -- or death.

 

[Frog]

Let's call it '' elimination '' or '' neutralisation''....