Brewster Buffalo - what is the verdict?

Here is a file with figures from original Brewster documentation. The data on the 339-23 is sketchy, sorry about that Hopefully this file will help with the Brewster discussion. BTW, I'm unaware of 'two Brewster CEO's' being arrested. Perhaps the poster was thinking about Miranda and Zelcer, arms dealers who were jailed on charges relating to Curtiss Wright which dated well before they formed the Brewster Export Company (which was not legally part of Brewster Aeronautical Corporation).

jimmaas said:

Here is a file with figures from original Brewster documentation. The data on the 339-23 is sketchy, sorry about that Hopefully this file will help with the Brewster discussion. BTW, I'm unaware of 'two Brewster CEO's' being arrested. Perhaps the poster was thinking about Miranda and Zelcer, arms dealers who were jailed on charges relating to Curtiss Wright which dated well before they formed the Brewster Export Company (which was not legally part of Brewster Aeronautical Corporation).

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You can look at this

https://www.google.fr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwih1JG3_4P-AhUaUKQEHSaAC7UQFnoECC0QAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fcontent.time.com%2Ftime%2Fmagazine%2Farticle%2F0%2C9171%2C851600%2C00.html&usg=AOvVaw3vdFnftF69K73LboNDrln7

Frog said:

You can look at this

https://www.google.fr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwih1JG3_4P-AhUaUKQEHSaAC7UQFnoECC0QAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fcontent.time.com%2Ftime%2Fmagazine%2Farticle%2F0%2C9171%2C851600%2C00.html&usg=AOvVaw3vdFnftF69K73LboNDrln7

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My how times have changed. Not!

Just for the sake of comparison. A 1/72 scale Revell model of the F4F-4 next to a 1/72 scale Aoshima (MPC) model of the Buffalo (painted in USN colors). Note the Buffalos had a prop spinner.)

Maxrobot1 said:

Just for the sake of comparison. A 1/72 scale Revell model of the F4F-4 next to a 1/72 scale Aoshima (MPC) model of the Buffalo (painted in USN colors). Note the Buffalos had a prop spinner.)

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Ok. Now do it in 1:32 so I can get a better grasp.

I won't complain if you post a few more pictures of those two planes.

Greg Boeser said:

Ok. Now do it in 1:32 so I can get a better grasp.

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I wish there were 1/32 scale Brewster Buffalo kits out there! I did build the old Revell 1/32 Wildcat when it first came out in the late 1960s.

Say, I was just thinking.
Did the British give the name"Buffalo" after the city by Niagara Falls in New York, or after the animal?
The Boston was named after the city of Boston to gain favor with then U.S. Ambassador to Great Britain Joseph Kennedy Sr. (who of course was from Boston) but the Mustang was named after the animal.

Maxrobot1 said:

Say, I was just thinking.
Did the British give the name"Buffalo" after the city by Niagara Falls in New York, or after the animal?
The Boston was named after the city of Boston to gain favor with then U.S. Ambassador to Great Britain Joseph Kennedy Sr. (who of course was from Boston) but the Mustang was named after the animal.

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Good question.
They named the Maryland and Baltimore after the state and city where they were produced.

The verdict seems to be that if you were Norweigian flying against early Soviet pilots, it wasn't bad.

If you were a U.S. pilot flying a Buffalo, it was pretty much a dog that flew like a really nice sport plane, but wasn't any good for combat against decent adversaries in reasonable equipment.

I'm not aware of norwegian pilot volounteer in the winter war, have you more info?

If he was there, he'd do okay.

GregP said:

The verdict seems to be that if you were Norweigian flying against early Soviet pilots, it wasn't bad.

If you were a U.S. pilot flying a Buffalo, it was pretty much a dog that flew like a really nice sport plane, but wasn't any good for combat against decent adversaries in reasonable equipment.

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Hi,
I think that there is likely more to it than that (assuming that you mean Finnish instead of Norwegian).

Specifically, if I am recalling correctly (iirc) the Finns recieved there Brewster fighters right at the end of the Winter War, and as such had a chance t familiarize themselves with the planes and work out some issues, partiularly with the engine piston rings (iirc) before the start of the Continuation War. In addition, as these planes were amoung the most modern aircraft that the Finns had in a reasonably large number, they were assigned to a squadron with experienced well-trained pilots.

Meanwhile, in the Far East, as I understand it, many of the pilots in the RAF and RAAf were fairly new (many straight from training) with little experience with these aircraft, and the ground crews were still working out many issues with the engines, weapons, and other systems, especially in the rainy/humid environment and lack of ground crew personnel may have greatly impacted the continued performance of the aircraft over time.

Also, at Midway, as I understand it, some of the pilots had just been transferred in to the squadron there and it is unlcear to me how familiar they were with either the F2A's or F4F's used there. In addition it does not appear that they had a chance to try and incorporate and lessons learned by the Navy from recent operations such as the Battle of the Coral Seas.

As such, Pilot experience, familiarity with the aircraft type and its characteristics, and ground support may have also played a significant role in the overall abilities of the Brewster variants in the different theatres that it operated in.

Added to this there are also issues with the level of experience of the opposition faced by the pilots flying the different variants of the Brewster aircraft in the different theatres of operations, with the early Soviet forces potentially not being as experienced while the Japanese in the Far East, potentially having some experience from the ongoing war between Japan and China, and the Japanese at Midway from the Kido Butai likely being very experienced, and high quality pilots.

Regards

Pat

PS. One last note that I think may sometimes get overlooked is that in regards to trying to use "boom and zoom" tactics as opposed to dogfighting an oppenent, its not always realized that the best speed for climbing for a given aircraft is often far from that aircraft's top speed at a given altitude. Specifically, I recall reading an account from a pilot in the Far East noting that while his plane was climbing at about 180mph, the Japanese were speeding past him at more than 300 mph.

As such, if a squadron does not have enough forwarning to make it to altitude before encountering their opposition they will likely be even more disadvantaged than you might otherwise think if you are just looking at the airplanes' rated top speed.

Also remember that the early Buffalo's where lighter than the ones used by the RAF, USMC, and the Dutch East Indies Pilots. They lacked a lot of the equipment later deemed necessary for a combat A/C. Also I have never been able to verify what engine model the Finish Buffalo's had. So they may have had slightly better (or at least ones with less operating hours) than the other air forces received.
And as previously stated with a well motivated Pilot, that has sufficient training, and hours in the type being flown, will have an advantage over a lesser trained, experienced, and motivated opponent. Even if the opponent has better equipment. Then throw in tactic's and logistics, and finally enough early warning of an attack. Its always hard to pin down exactly why one person or group succeeds with what is later considered to be a huge disadvantage in equipment or numbers, while other groups perform like we would expect them to do decades later.

Vincenzo said:

I'm not aware of norwegian pilot volounteer in the winter war, have you more info?

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You know, the guys the Norwegians that defected to Finland were flying against. My bad. Late night, not thinking. Thanks, Vicenzo. Duhhhh ...

cammerjeff said:

Also I have never been able to verify what engine model the Finish Buffalo's had

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I can't verify (wasn't there, don't have photos of data plates. etc) but as note several times in this thread and others the Finns got a totally different engine than everybody else (except for the US FA2-1) got.
No reduction gear for the prop.
same bore and stroke after that???????
Different crankcase, aluminum not steel, different fins on the cylinder barrels, different fins on the cylinder heads. Not sure if any of the internals were the same.

No reduction gear on the front of the engine.
Cowl, fuselage is shorter than later versions.

RAF Buffalo

Reduction gear case on the front of the engine.

I have no idea if the Finns got different engines from the Germans or used captured/salvaged Russian engines.

cammerjeff said:

Also remember that the early Buffalo's where lighter than the ones used by the RAF, USMC, and the Dutch East Indies Pilots. They lacked a lot of the equipment later deemed necessary for a combat A/C. Also I have never been able to verify what engine model the Finish Buffalo's had. So they may have had slightly better (or at least ones with less operating hours) than the other air forces received.
And as previously stated with a well motivated Pilot, that has sufficient training, and hours in the type being flown, will have an advantage over a lesser trained, experienced, and motivated opponent. Even if the opponent has better equipment. Then throw in tactic's and logistics, and finally enough early warning of an attack. Its always hard to pin down exactly why one person or group succeeds with what is later considered to be a huge disadvantage in equipment or numbers, while other groups perform like we would expect them to do decades later.

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The engine was Wright R-1820-G5 as mentioned in the message #38 and the attachment in message #41

Shortround6 said:

...I have no idea if the Finns got different engines from the Germans or used captured/salvaged Russian engines.

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Five FiAF B-239s got war-booty M-63s in 1942 but there were reliability problems and Finns began to reinstall 1820-G5s. The main reason for the problems was that Finns did not have the manual of M-63, they got one from Germany only in1943.

The Abwehr dropped the ball on that one.