Brewster Buffalo - what is the verdict?

[FulmenTheFinn]

It was not in my plans to learn Finnish, so I would be grateful for the translation.

Your browser should have a feature that allows you to translate the page. I've read that page in both Finnish and English and the translation at least on Google Chrome is OK. It's mainly about the kill claims of Finnish pilots.

If we are talking about the Porsö island, it is located 20+ kilometers from Hanko Peninsula (or the boundaries of the area leased by the Soviets), if not, please provide the coordinates. For me all these mentions of shelling are absolutely equivalent to Soviet claims of shelling from the Finnish side in the area of Mainila in November, 1939 ("Shelling of Mainila"). It seems that Finnish officials simply needed something to counter the Soviet side's uncomfortable questions about neutrality.

You're looking at the wrong Porsö. This one is at 59°53'49.2"N 22°53'55.3"E, just northwest of Hanko. To make matters more confusing, there's at least two Storholmens very close to each other as well, but I assume the larger one at 59°54'39.8"N 22°57'52.9"E is the one in question.


Click to enlarge.


An image with nearby Finnish defensive fortifications on the mainland (the so-called Harparskog Line) and on the nearby islands outlined.

I've now been investigating this matter with a Russian contact of mine. Apparently there are more of those in Russia who think this bombing never happened (including this very vulgar, Solovyov-from-Rossiya 1-type poster here). My contact also uncovered an article by Geust in Russian, according to which the SB unit in question was 57 BAP of the VVS KBF (Saint-Petersburg and Northern European countries: Materials of the thirteenth annual scientific conference (5–7 of April 2011), p. 259). Perhaps you can dig more with this information? It has very much piqued my interest.

But at this point I suggest we move this conversation into DMs as it is OT, so please respond there.

Okay guys. I want to know the truth of this story. I've heard three Finnish service personnel were to be awarded Iron Crosses by their Aryan co-belligerents. Those 3 Finns were Jewish and refused them. Was this a deliberate act of "trolling" and/or did it actually happen?

It's true, and no, it was not trolling. Incidentally, when the German 163rd Infantry Division was on the Svir Front they had a field synagogue next to their sector, built by some of the Finnish Jewish soldiers serving in the units there, which to my knowledge was just fine by the 163rd. If this area of history interests you, I can recommend this video:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emgOzd0ng1A&ab_channel=NationalMuseumofAmericanJewishMilitaryHistory

But to try to get back on-topic, I've recently been looking at Finnish aerial victory claims. Officially for the Brewster in Finnish service there's 480 of them, but I have a list with some 494-495 entries (once I've finished sorting out my lists I'll have an exact number). Most or all of this inflation up from 480 comes from aircraft that originally weren't marked as confirmed kills, but which have since been confirmed destroyed with information obtained from the Russian archives. At any rate, the archives look to back up only 155, or about 1/3, of these, including one German He 111 shot down by accident at night in May 1943. Even if this isn't the final tally, it's pretty clear there's air in the Finnish kill claims. Far less than those of Soviet pilots, to be sure, but air nonetheless*. If we assume that 155 would be the final tally, then with 16 Brewsters shot down by the VVS and another 5 destroyed on the ground for a total of 21 by enemy aerial action, then the KLR for the Brewster Model 239 would be 7:1 or 10:1, depending on if you count the 5 destroyed on the ground in air raids or not. Incidentally, 2 were shot down by Soviet AA, 4 by German AA, 12 were lost in accidents and the remaining 5 were scrapped. One or two ended up as playthings for children in public parks before they too were scrapped likely some time in the '50s or '60s.


BW-387 in Saukonpuisto Park, Tampere, 1952.

*According to varying sources perhaps 1/2-1/3 of Finnish aerial victory claims are true, while I've read that for the Soviets it's more like 1/16. I know for a fact that in the Winter War it was 1/12 for the VVS (438 claimed vs. 38 actual), and that's not even including the aircraft the VVS claimed to have destroyed in air raids, which is likely in the dozens, or more (in reality they destroyed one, more specifically a de Havilland D.H.60 X Moth on Immola airfield on 1 December 1939).

Speaking of kill claims, and more specifically about the Buffalo kill claims against the Japanese that came up: How verifiable ultimately are these? From what I understand the records of the IJA and IJN air forces were pretty badly destroyed in WW2, or is this not so?

EDIT, 5 October 2025: Regarding the VVS bombings of Finnish ships on 22 June 1941 (for those who haven't followed page 10 of the thread: not to be confused with the large-scale summer bombing campaign the VVS began against Finland on 25 June 1941):

I didn't want to detract the thread further, so I'm editing this post I wrote over three weeks ago. I investigated the matter further with the great help of a Russian contact of mine. He discovered that the Russian author specialising in the history of the VVS KBF that bf109xxl mentioned previously, Miroslav Morozov, has confirmed that the VVS did indeed bomb Finnish ships c. 6:05 am GMT+2 (Finnish time, no DST (GMT+3) yet back then). Seven SBs, evidently from the VVS KBF's 73 SBAP based at Pärnu airfield, Estonia (annexed by the USSR in the summer of 1940), took off over three hours after a pair of MBR-2 flying boats belonging to the VVS KBF's 44 OMRAE spotted a German minelayer flotilla laying the minefield Apolda at the mouth of the Gulf of Finland in the early hours of 22 June 1941. Incidentally the MBR-2s engaged the Germans and the Germans fired back. This was c. 2:30 am and Barbarossa would not begin until 3:00 am (all times in GMT+2), meaning the first shots of the Eastern Front of WW2 were fired, at least in the Baltic Sea, there and then.

At any rate, the KBF ordered an airstrike on this flotilla, but by the time the SBs reached the spot the Germans were long gone. Instead the SBs spotted the Finnish ships to the north carrying out the remilitarisation of the Åland Islands, apparently took them for the German flotilla and engaged them. They flew right at them at a high altitude and the Finns opened defensive fire against them, after which they dropped their bombs at the ships but missed. The bombs fell into the sea and onto a tiny empty island or islet next to Husö Island, where the impact of the bombs caused some small fires to break out.

Interestingly, because of time delays and other factors, this attack erroneously went down in Finnish historiography as a series of Soviet air attacks in the area occurring at different times and slightly different locations between 6-7 am, when in fact there had only been one Soviet air attack (see also: https://www.aromaat.net/Navygallery/Background/Wartime/Kilpapurjehdus.htm), though that's not what was at issue here. The issue here was whether the Soviet Air Force had attacked the Finns at all in the morning of 22 June 1941, and they definitely did. However it was interesting investigating this and getting clarity on the course of events that morning, so I thank bf109xxl for piquing my interest into investigating this further. That is all.

 

[bf109xxl]

Your browser should have a feature that allows you to translate the page. I've read that page in both Finnish and English and the translation at least on Google Chrome is OK. It's mainly about the kill claims of Finnish pilots.

An automatic translator is good if you already know how to translate. In all other cases, even the best translators produce a result that takes effort and time to understand. I don't have the free time for that.

You're looking at the wrong Porsö. This one is at 59°53'49.2"N 22°53'55.3"E, just northwest of Hanko. To make matters more confusing, there's at least two Storholmens very close to each other as well, but I assume the larger one at 59°54'39.8"N 22°57'52.9"E is the one in question.

View attachment 846639
Click to enlarge.

View attachment 846640
An image with nearby Finnish defensive fortifications on the mainland (the so-called Harparskog Line) and on the nearby islands outlined.

And wtf did the Soviets need to shell these godforsaken fortifications where no operations were planned? Just because they felt some kind of dislike for the Finnish military? Before that, all orders categorically forbade to open fire before the enemy crossed the border. And why did the Soviet leadership need it, if it was still trying to clarify the issue of neutrality for at least two days?

I've now been investigating this matter with a Russian contact of mine. Apparently there are more of those in Russia who think this bombing never happened (including this very vulgar, Solovyov-from-Rossiya 1-type poster here). My contact also uncovered an article by Geust in Russian, according to which the SB unit in question was 57 BAP of the VVS KBF (Saint-Petersburg and Northern European countries: Materials of the thirteenth annual scientific conference (5–7 of April 2011), p. 259). Perhaps you can dig more with this information? It has very much piqued my interest.

Putting aside the angry and boorish tone of the article, it asks a legitimate question: where are the supporting documents? The answer "the Soviets shredded all the documents" is not suitable - the Soviets kept much more dangerous documents for them. The sortie of several airplanes is always accompanied by the filling of many documents, orders remain, entries are made in the combat log, etc. A "trace" is formed, which under Soviet bureaucracy was not so easy to "clean up". The sanction to bomb Finnish territory could only be given by the highest Soviet leadership - not even the fleet commander! The question arises: how did the Soviets know about the ships and the landing? To send bombers to nowhere without intelligence is unthinkable, to plan and carry out such an operation in three or four hours, even with one squadron, is absolutely unrealistic for the Soviets at that time. Even a simple transfer of information between headquarters could take hours! I highly doubt that Geust's article answers this question. I do not believe that the Soviets always acted logically, or rather I believe that they very often acted illogically, but here is an absolute idiocy that I personally cannot imagine. According to Miroslav Morozov (the most authoritative expert on Soviet naval aviation, known for his critical views on its actions), the first sorties of the 57th BAP and 1st MTAP took place on June 24.
I have no contacts in Russia and I prefer not to read articles written in such a boorish tone and not to discuss with such authors who try to justify any Soviet actions by any means. But this does not mean that they cannot ask a legitimate question.

But at this point I suggest we move this conversation into DMs as it is OT, so please respond there.

It seems to me that despite the OT the discussion could be interesting for the audience.

 

[SaparotRob]

The Winter War and the Continuation War are pretty much Terra Incognita to me.

 

[buffnut453]

Speaking of kill claims, and more specifically about the Buffalo kill claims against the Japanese that came up: How verifiable ultimately are these? From what I understand the records of the IJA and IJN air forces were pretty badly destroyed in WW2, or is this not so?

It's obviously impossible to verify all the claims. As noted, there absolutely was overclaiming by both sides. However, a couple of well-documented confirmed kills that are quite telling.

There's the well-known image in the book Bloody Shambles of the tail of a 64th Sentai Ki43 that was downed over Malaya.

Then there's this tail of a Ki-46 shot down by Charlie Kronk and Bert Wipiti of 243 Sqn. The Dinahs were used for high speed and (relatively) high altitude reconnaissance. This is a significant kill, given the Buffalo's poor climb rate and tendency to wallow at higher altitudes:

Google Image Result for https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/86/488_Squadron_RNZAF.jpg/250px-488_Squadron_RNZAF.jpg

While solid evidence of victories is scant due to multiple reasons (terrain, lost records etc), these couple of examples indicate that the Buffalo could succeed against the best the Japanese had in 1941-42.

 

[buffnut453]

It seems to me that despite the OT the discussion could be interesting for the audience.

It's absolutely a fascinating subject, and one not often discussed. However, I'd recommend starting a new thread so we don't get it all tangled up with Buffalo stuff. I'm sure the mods can parse out the Winter War/Continuation War stuff and add them to a brand new thread.

 

[fly_Troy]

Recommend the book "Buffaloes Over Singapore" which includes a comprehensive list of Buffalo claims over Malaya and Singapore (but not Burma - there weren't any A6Ms in Burma so that theatre doesn't count for your question). The list includes:

14 Jan 42 - 1x A6M probable, Fisken
15 Jan 42 - 1x A6M probable (crashed), Garden and Weber (shared)
17 Jan 42 - 1x A6M probable, Vanderfield and Clare (shared)
18 Jan 42 - 4x A6M confirmed, 5x A6M probable, Kuhn (2 confirmed), Sharp (1 confirmed), Baldwin (1 confirmed), MacIntosh (2 probable), Arthur (1 probable), Kronk (1 probable), Meaclem (1 probable)
19 Jan 42 - 1x A6M probable, Kirkman
21 Jan 42 - 2x A6M confirmed, 1x A6M probable, Wipiti (1 confirmed), Fisken (1 confirmed), and Kronk (1 probable)
26 Jan 42 - 1x A6M confirmed, Cranstone
1 Feb 42 - 1x A6M probable, Fisken

In addition, we have the following claims from the RNEIAF from the same source:

28 Dec 41 - 2x A6M confirmed, unidentified pilots of 1-VlG-V
24 Jan 42 - 2x A6M confirmed, van Rest and Benjamins
19 Feb 42 - 2x A6M confirmed, van Hesldingen and Bruggink (the date of the latter isn't confirmed)

Note these are A6M claims only. There are many more claims for IJAAF aircraft, including multiple Ki-43s.

So… I've been wanting to ask. How the Buffalo compared to the Wildcat in the areas that allowed the wildcat to eventually turn the tide against Japan.

1) What was the comparative dive speed?
2) how did it handle taking damage from the zero?
3) how heavy (or light) were the controls at high speed? And how did it compare to the wild cat overall when used for "boom and zoom"?

 

[Dimlee]

To note, there are good videos about Brewster Buffalo on this channel:

Showtime112

This channel is about the history of military aviation. If you were a fan of History Channel's Dogfights, you will enjoy this content. We similarly use computer graphics to reenact clashes between various military aircraft, but we cover a much wider range of stories, including many 'forgotten'...

www.youtube.com

Malaya and Finland were covered.

 

[GregP]

Do we have any reports on what the Japanese thought of the Buffalo?

View attachment 751834

Now, what if we swap out the Wright R-1820 Cyclone for a Nakajima Sakae?

You'd have less horsepower ... but more easily-available local parts.