It's simply not true. Just read the book "The Continuation War: An Investigation of German-Finnish Military Collaboration 1940-1941" by Mauno Jokipii (there is a Russian translation of this book). Finland joined Germany before the Soviets attacked - German bombers began mining the Gulf of Finland, taking off from Finnish airfields a few hours before the Germans attack on the USSR.
Brewster Buffalo - what is the verdict?
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FulmenTheFinn
Airman
Wrong. They took off from East Prussia, which I already covered in my previous post, which I hope you would read. The sorties are well-covered in Jokipii's book, which I have. The aircraft in question landed in Utti, Finland, to refuel on their return trip to Germany. To my knowledge no indication has ever surfaced that the Russians knew about this refueling, btw.
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Yes, the bombers took off in East Prussia, but the statement "using Finnish airfields" would be quite correct, especially when you consider that the first of the 14 planes of Kampfgruppe 806 carried a Finnish officer for communications and navigation tasks.
Finnish submarines mined Kunda Bay as early as June 22, 1941, and the Suusaari area on June 23-24.
On June 23, a strike on the Stalin Channel from Malmi airfield was planned, but cloud cover prevented it.
German torpedo boats operated even before June 25 from Finnish waters, which was noticed by the Soviets.
The raids on June 25, 1941 was a priceless political gift made by the Soviet leadership to the Finns, who took full advantage of it.
Jokipii convincingly refutes the version that until June 25, 1941 Finland did not think about entering the war on the German side.
A side question.
Several sources mentioned the Soviet bombing (or just an attempt?) of Finnish ships and troops during the landing on the Aland Islands. Did Finns suffer any losses?
By the way, four Finnish Buffalos were flying over the USSR already in the night from June 23rd to June 24th - they had to escort German seaplanes returning after the landing of a sabotage group of 16 Finnish military men (in civilian clothes) - according to Jokipii. The group had to blow up the locks of the White Sea-Baltic Canal, but was unable to complete the task, the explosives were used to blow up the rails on the way back to Finland.
As I understood, it has already been found out about the [prearranged] landing of Finnish troops on demilitarized Aland Islands on the night of June 22, 1941.
This is such an interesting neutrality.
PS. I don't want to be a "devil's advocate" justifying the Soviets, but I don't like myths, whatever they may be.
As I understood, it has already been found out about the [prearranged] landing of Finnish troops on demilitarized Aland Islands on the night of June 22, 1941.
This is such an interesting neutrality.
PS. I don't want to be a "devil's advocate" justifying the Soviets, but I don't like myths, whatever they may be.
Elvis
1st Sergeant
I read somewhere online, a while back, that an F2A got in a dogfight with a Zero and shot him down. The way the story was presented, it was a singular event that happened somewhere around NZ or Oz and it was backed up by a few people who witnessed the skirmish from the ground.
Is that Buffalo pilot Geoff Fisken?
I don't recall he article ever mentioning any names.
buffnut453
Captain
Recommend the book "Buffaloes Over Singapore" which includes a comprehensive list of Buffalo claims over Malaya and Singapore (but not Burma - there weren't any A6Ms in Burma so that theatre doesn't count for your question). The list includes:
14 Jan 42 - 1x A6M probable, Fisken
15 Jan 42 - 1x A6M probable (crashed), Garden and Weber (shared)
17 Jan 42 - 1x A6M probable, Vanderfield and Clare (shared)
18 Jan 42 - 4x A6M confirmed, 5x A6M probable, Kuhn (2 confirmed), Sharp (1 confirmed), Baldwin (1 confirmed), MacIntosh (2 probable), Arthur (1 probable), Kronk (1 probable), Meaclem (1 probable)
19 Jan 42 - 1x A6M probable, Kirkman
21 Jan 42 - 2x A6M confirmed, 1x A6M probable, Wipiti (1 confirmed), Fisken (1 confirmed), and Kronk (1 probable)
26 Jan 42 - 1x A6M confirmed, Cranstone
1 Feb 42 - 1x A6M probable, Fisken
In addition, we have the following claims from the RNEIAF from the same source:
28 Dec 41 - 2x A6M confirmed, unidentified pilots of 1-VlG-V
24 Jan 42 - 2x A6M confirmed, van Rest and Benjamins
19 Feb 42 - 2x A6M confirmed, van Hesldingen and Bruggink (the date of the latter isn't confirmed)
Note these are A6M claims only. There are many more claims for IJAAF aircraft, including multiple Ki-43s.
FulmenTheFinn
Airman
Carl-Fredrik Geust: "At 6:03 am two SB flights (4+3 aircraft) bombed, no damages. The bombs fell into the sea and on Älskar Fortress Island. The ships opened fire, no hits."
Lari Pietiläinen: "In order to carry out Operaatio Kilpapurjehdus [Operation Regatta] the Commander of the Navy subordinated the Hanko Group and forces of the 6th Coastal Brigade to Commander of the Fleet Commodor Rahola. The task of the Coastal Fleet was to repel the enemy's naval invasions and to support coastal forces in the Åland area during the operation. The armoured ships [coastal defence ships Väinämöinen and Ilmarinen] were doing what they'd originally been obtained for. Minelaying was tasked to the minelayer ships subordinated to the Coastal Fleet. Defensive minefields were to be laid in the waterways of Kökar, Nyhamn, Kobbaklintar and Mariehamn. The Commander of the Fleet had received the order to cross Åland's provincial border at midnight, but had to stop the ships as no permission had come from the Commander-in-Chief [Mannerheim]. The garrison force for Åland was to consist of about 5,200 men, 69 guns and 24 mortars. The troops were transported with 23 transport ships from the Turku - Uusikaupunki - Rauma area. The convoy was protected by both armoured ships and the gunboats Uusimaa, Hämeenmaa and Karjala.
The first battles of the Continuation War were fought during Operaatio Kilpapurjehdus. On Sunday morning 22 June at about 6 am seven Soviet aircraft were spotted above Kihdinselkä, approaching the naval detachment from the southwest. Armoured ship Ilmarinen opened fire which was soon joined by the other ships in the detachment. The attackers dropped their bombs in two waves without hitting their targets. The bombs fell into the sea and on the nearby island, where a fire broke out. The battle lasted for five minutes. The following is from the war diary of gunboat Hämeenmaa, from 6:05 am: "The first air alarm. 7 enemy aircraft bombed our formation. The aircraft flew in two segments, first four aircraft and after them three. The planes flew at a very high altitude so their bombing-accuracy was very poor. We fired 13 rounds with the 40/60 B, but without result." The garrison force for Åland arrived at its staging area already that same day. Fortresses formed by coastal artillery batteries had been founded by 8 July. At the start of autumn 1941 it was concluded that Soviet forces no longer posed a threat to Åland. The success in garrisoning Åland had an enormous impact on the continuation of the war effort."
Sources:
-Carl-Fredrik Geust (2011?): Miinoja Kronstadtiin ja pommeja Turkuun: Suomen ilmavoimat välirauhan aikana [Mines into Kronstadt and Bombs into Turku: The Finnish Air Force During the Interim Peace].
-Lari Pietiläinen (2016): Merisotaa itäisellä Suomenlahdella 1941 [Naval War in the Eastern Gulf of Finland in 1941], pp. 3-4.
My translation.
I tried looking around a bit for what unit the seven SBs were from, but didn't see any mentions. Maybe
bf109xxl
might know? I suspect a VVS KBF unit. Might be interesting reading what they reported, although this is getting quite OT for this thread.That seems highly questionable to me. I don't remember any mention of any Baltic Fleet aviation regiments raids on the Aland Islands area on June 22, 1941 - both the 57th BAP and the 1st MTAP flew out to bomb the mythical landing force in the area of Libava, but as no landing force was found, they bombed Memel.I tried looking around a bit for what unit the seven SBs were from, but didn't see any mentions. Maybe
I will try to re-examine the available sources - not only on BF AF, but also DBA and army AF, I will inform you about the result
In addition: it is extremely difficult to imagine that someone gave the order to prepare bombers for sortie in advance (and the preparation takes several hours, rather half a day at that time), to bomb a neutral (as still considered by the top leadership of the USSR) country in the early morning of June 22. For such an initiative, even the commander of the Baltic Fleet could easily pay with his life. The situation remained absolutely unclear, and in such circumstances it was usually preferable to wait for a definite order from a higher authority.
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FulmenTheFinn
Airman
Implying the bombings, which were probably witnessed by thousands of Finnish servicemen, didn't happen, or perhaps that they were a German or Finnish false flag op, is a stretch, to say the least. The likelier explanation is that they were Soviet SBs either mistaking the ships as German or under orders to prevent the Finns from remilitarising Åland, which by the way was a topic of fixation for the USSR already in the 1930s.
The Väinämöinen war diary reads:
0606 Observed 7 enemy bombers south, 4 and 3 aircraft flights
0608 We opened anti-aircraft fire, distance 5,800 m
They dropped their bombs
0612 We ceased anti-aircraft fire
0616 The aircraft disappeared from sight
It's not like this was a lone incident either: at 7:55 am 22 June Soviet artillery on the Hanko Lease Territory opened fire on Finnish positions in Porsö, Storholmen and on the mainland. That same day 14 km south of Imatra at Hirsilampi Finnish border guards were fired at from the Soviet side of the border, while several dozen shells were fired by Soviet artillery at a Finnish merchant ship near Pummanki off the coast of Petsamo. These incidents led to Foreign Minister Rolf Witting issuing a note of formal protest to the USSR's ambassador in Helsinki, Pavel Orlov, which he declined to take.
EDIT: Corrected Storholm to Storholmen.
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A sortie of seven bombers could not remain undocumented. The order for mine laying was given only at 06:00 on June 22, before that time any bomber sorties can be ruled out with very high reliability. The only thing I can imagine is the actions of the MBR-2 scouts that could happen to be there (e.g. from the 44th Independent Reconnaissance Squadron operating from the Tallinn area).
As for the Soviet fire - it is impossible to exclude it, but I would also estimate the probability as low. There were direct orders forbidding to open fire before the Finnish troops crossed the border. I cannot absolutely exclude the possibility, but what was the point of firing tens of kilometers away at positions when there was no certainty that Finland had entered the war? To me it all looks extremely doubtful. And as for eyewitness accounts, during the war the reliability of such accounts is greatly reduced for various reasons.
As for the Soviet fire - it is impossible to exclude it, but I would also estimate the probability as low. There were direct orders forbidding to open fire before the Finnish troops crossed the border. I cannot absolutely exclude the possibility, but what was the point of firing tens of kilometers away at positions when there was no certainty that Finland had entered the war? To me it all looks extremely doubtful. And as for eyewitness accounts, during the war the reliability of such accounts is greatly reduced for various reasons.
Thank you. Your contribution to the thread is appreciated.Carl-Fredrik Geust: "At 6:03 am two SB flights (4+3 aircraft) bombed, no damages. The bombs fell into the sea and on Älskar Fortress Island. The ships opened fire, no hits."
Lari Pietiläinen: "In order to carry out Operaatio Kilpapurjehdus [Operation Regatta] the Commander of the Navy subordinated the Hanko Group and forces of the 6th Coastal Brigade to Commander of the Fleet Commodor Rahola. The task of the Coastal Fleet was to repel the enemy's naval invasions and to support coastal forces in the Åland area during the operation. The armoured ships [coastal defence ships Väinämöinen and Ilmarinen] were doing what they'd originally been obtained for. Minelaying was tasked to the minelayer ships subordinated to the Coastal Fleet. Defensive minefields were to be laid in the waterways of Kökar, Nyhamn, Kobbaklintar and Mariehamn. The Commander of the Fleet had received the order to cross Åland's provincial border at midnight, but had to stop the ships as no permission had come from the Commander-in-Chief [Mannerheim]. The garrison force for Åland was to consist of about 5,200 men, 69 guns and 24 mortars. The troops were transported with 23 transport ships from the Turku - Uusikaupunki - Rauma area. The convoy was protected by both armoured ships and the gunboats Uusimaa, Hämeenmaa and Karjala.
The first battles of the Continuation War were fought during Operaatio Kilpapurjehdus. On Sunday morning 22 June at about 6 am seven Soviet aircraft were spotted above Kihdinselkä, approaching the naval detachment from the southwest. Armoured ship Ilmarinen opened fire which was soon joined by the other ships in the detachment. The attackers dropped their bombs in two waves without hitting their targets. The bombs fell into the sea and on the nearby island, where a fire broke out. The battle lasted for five minutes. The following is from the war diary of gunboat Hämeenmaa, from 6:05 am: "The first air alarm. 7 enemy aircraft bombed our formation. The aircraft flew in two segments, first four aircraft and after them three. The planes flew at a very high altitude so their bombing-accuracy was very poor. We fired 13 rounds with the 40/60 B, but without result." The garrison force for Åland arrived at its staging area already that same day. Fortresses formed by coastal artillery batteries had been founded by 8 July. At the start of autumn 1941 it was concluded that Soviet forces no longer posed a threat to Åland. The success in garrisoning Åland had an enormous impact on the continuation of the war effort."
Sources:
-Carl-Fredrik Geust (2011?): Miinoja Kronstadtiin ja pommeja Turkuun: Suomen ilmavoimat välirauhan aikana [Mines into Kronstadt and Bombs into Turku: The Finnish Air Force During the Interim Peace].
-Lari Pietiläinen (2016): Merisotaa itäisellä Suomenlahdella 1941 [Naval War in the Eastern Gulf of Finland in 1941], pp. 3-4.
My translation.
I tried looking around a bit for what unit the seven SBs were from, but didn't see any mentions. Maybe
FulmenTheFinn
Airman
It probably couldn't remain undocumented, but whether that documentation survives or has been found may be another matter. There are holes in RKKA and VMF operational reports, strength and loss reports, and after action reports. E.g. apparently 5% of the Soviet 7th Air Army's losses from 1941-45 are missing from the archives, while for its Pe-2 losses from that period it's as much as 30% (there's some discussion about this here). Or another example: the Soviet 21st Army has no data at all on its armoured strength on 21 June 1944. I use Soviet examples but there are holes in the surviving records for every military out there.
Regarding artillery fire, we're not talking of distances of tens of km here, but rather of only a few km at best. Porsö and Storholmen are just outside the Hanko Lease Territory, as were the Finnish defenses on the mainland. In the case of Pummanki we're talking of similar ranges. In the case of the border guards, they were probably fired at only from a few hundred metres away at best.
Elvis
1st Sergeant
...and those were all splashed by F2A's? Impressive! Seems the story I read is not entirely truthful, as things were. Thanks for the info Buff! =)
buffnut453
Captain
No problem...and, yes, those are all Brewster kills. We can add 11 confirmed and probable Ki-43 kills so the much-mocked Buffalo actually did pretty well, particularly when one considers the lack of early warning and the generally low experience levels of the pilots. There was certainly overclaiming (on both sides) but, even taking that into consideration, it's still a pretty impressive record for "the worlds worst fighter aircraft."
I never heard of any loss of documents of the bomber regiments of the Baltic Fleet Air Force. The BF AF were not damaged in the first Luftwaffe raids on June 22, they were not affected by the chaos of the retreat. And even the documents of the Baltic Military District Air Force are complete enough to state that no sorties were flown to the Åland Islands area on June 22.
For Soviet bomber aviation, a reaction time of hours was completely unthinkable in 1941 - from the moment of receiving the reconnaissance data to making a decision could take twenty-four hours. I have re-checked all the sources available to me about the June 22 bomber sorties - none of them mention the Åland Islands as a target. The bombers of the Baltic Military District Air Force can be safely excluded - they were operating exclusively on nearby targets in the interests of ground units. I don't see any other options besides a few MBR-2 scouts. But I would appreciate it if someone could cite documents that refute my point.
5% of losses is at the level of statistical error. It would be wonderful if such accuracy was achievable in estimating German losses... It was not in my plans to learn Finnish, so I would be grateful for the translation.
If we are talking about the Porsö island, it is located 20+ kilometers from Hanko Peninsula (or the boundaries of the area leased by the Soviets), if not, please provide the coordinates. For me all these mentions of shelling are absolutely equivalent to Soviet claims of shelling from the Finnish side in the area of Mainila in November, 1939 ("Shelling of Mainila"). It seems that Finnish officials simply needed something to counter the Soviet side's uncomfortable questions about neutrality.
Elvis
1st Sergeant
Agreed. I always thought the Buffalo got a worse rep than it deserved.
This also kinda substantiates an article I once saw on a test the Russians did on ability of fighter aircraft to do full power turns, as if in the middle of a dogfight.
Some planes took as much as 30 seconds to pull a u-turn at full power, but I remember a Buffalo was timed in 7 seconds. One of the faster times of the test.
So, if you think about it, given the inexperience of the pilots, the ability to splash that many Zero's, a plane known for its very agile nature, you must have been piloting a pretty agile aircraft yourself.
I think this is something the Finns found out pretty quickly, upon receiving their B-239's, as well.
The Groundhog objects.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Okay guys. I want to know the truth of this story. I've heard three Finnish service personnel were to be awarded Iron Crosses by their Aryan co-belligerents. Those 3 Finns were Jewish and refused them. Was this a deliberate act of "trolling" and/or did it actually happen?
This is a true and a well-known story. All three were migrants (descendants of migrants) from imperial Russia before the revolution - Solomon Klass, Leo Skurnik and Dina Poljakoff. Finnish Jews had a very difficult dilemma...
