Buffaloes save Force Z, now what?

[Admiral Beez]

... and hope they're done by the end of March 1942, before KdB strikes in early April. Repulse may end up having that work done in South Africa, while PoW and available destroyers buttress Force C?

I think the upgrades are a home port job, especially the radar install and setup. 18 July 1941 Repulse arrived at Rosyth to have her radar suite and AA upgraded (shown here at the base). Per my copy of Battlecruiser Repulse, a fantastically informative book I bought last year at the Royal Maritime Museum, the work was evidently not completed, with no some radar masts and most of the intended new AA guns missing. My guess, is HMS Repulse returns to Rosyth to complete the work.

What about HMS Prince of Wales? I'd be tempted to leave her at Ceylon to await the Far East Fleet. Though the prospect of PoW (and Repulse, if above upgrades delayed or completed) joining the RN forces to catch the Feb 1942 Channel Dash might be a good use.

Orders of Battle - Operation Cerberus - Battles of the Atlantic and Arctic - World War II - NavWeaps

navweaps.com

Home Fleet

Sir John Tovey refused to risk the one effectively available battleship, HMS King George V, in the Channel, so close to the U-boats bases and Luftwaffe bomber bases. Of the Home Fleet battleships available in the second week of February 1942:

• HMS King George V - Watching the Tirpitz.
• HMS Duke of York - Working up and would not join the Fleet until the end of the month.
• HMS Rodney - Too slow to catch Scharnhorst, Gneisenau or Prinz Eugen, and was in need of another refit.
• HMS Renown - Force H. In the UK to escort a troop convoy to the Middle East.

How far the navy had fallen in this regard. In Nov 1918, excluding seventeen predreadnoughts, the Royal Navy had forty-two battleships/battlecruisers in service. And by Feb 1942, the navy can't field a single battleship when the majority of the KM surface fleet is sailing right past Felixstowe. Perhaps this is where the survivors of Force Z can help - though who knows, with the U-Boats and Luftwaffe nearby perhaps PoW and Repulse are doomed after all.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

I think the upgrades are a home port job, especially the radar install and setup. 18 July 1941 Repulse arrived at Rosyth to have her radar suite and AA upgraded (shown here at the base). Per my copy of Battlecruiser Repulse, a fantastically informative book I bought last year at the Royal Maritime Museum, the work was evidently not completed, with no some radar masts and most of the intended new AA guns missing. My guess, is HMS Repulse returns to Rosyth to complete the work.

Well, that makes Ceylon a waypoint and not an endpoint, which kind of jibes with what I wrote, but I was assuming that the work could be carried out in SA, given that shipping could be arranged to get the equipment there. If Repulse has to go home, scratch it off the list, it won't head out to Force C again. Convoy escort or perhaps Med service.

What about HMS Prince of Wales? I'd be tempted to leave her at Ceylon to await the Far East Fleet. Though the prospect of PoW (and Repulse, if above upgrades delayed or completed) joining the RN forces to catch the Feb 1942 Channel Dash might be a good use.

Not knowing the Japanese are coming, leaving her there might still be smart money.

How far the navy had fallen in this regard. In Nov 1918, excluding seventeen predreadnoughts, the Royal Navy had forty-two battleships/battlecruisers in service. And by Feb 1942, the navy can't field a single battleship when the majority of the KM surface fleet is sailing right past Felixstowe. Perhaps this is where the survivors of Force Z can help - though who knows, with the U-Boats and Luftwaffe nearby perhaps PoW and Repulse are doomed after al

I'd keep PoW in Ceylon. Bismarck is already sunk, the Ugly Sisters are being bombed by the RAF, and no one knows the Channel Dash is coming, so that's hindsightium. India has better defense too, with a modern BB. Plus, you don't want to stick battleships in narrow waters. Had PoW returned home she'd be in Scapa too, and too far away to be any good, just like the rest.

As for the numbers of battleships falling, it can't be helped. The austerity following WWI was unavoidable if small compared to that of 1950 or so.

 

[EwenS]

I would note that the Two British capitol ships don't bring quite as much to the gun fight as supposed.
The Repulse did not have her turrets refitted and was limited to 20 degrees of elevation and could not, on paper, out range the Japanese 8in cruisers. She may have had better accuracy at limits of her range than the 8in cruisers enjoyed however.

I have no idea if the British had any spare 15in ammo anywhere in the area except Singapore. The British had a rather astonishing variety of 15 in shells and powder charges for them so be sure you are comparing the right stuff.
The PoW had very good range but she only had about 100 rounds per gun (if full) and there was nowhere east of Suez (if there) that had spare ammo. She has to be very careful of using up ammo in a cruiser duel and being short should she run into capitol ships later on.

With Singapore being the RN planned main base in the Far East there were stocks of 15" AP there. But when a request was made in Jan 1942 for 15" HE for the Singapore guns, arrangements were made to have that sent from stocks held in Egypt. They did not arrive in time.

I've never come across any details of arrangements for the resupply of ammunition for PoW in the event of war in the Far East. But it was mid-1944 before any other KGV operated east of Suez.

 

[EwenS]

I think the upgrades are a home port job, especially the radar install and setup. 18 July 1941 Repulse arrived at Rosyth to have her radar suite and AA upgraded (shown here at the base). Per my copy of Battlecruiser Repulse, a fantastically informative book I bought last year at the Royal Maritime Museum, the work was evidently not completed, with no some radar masts and most of the intended new AA guns missing. My guess, is HMS Repulse returns to Rosyth to complete the work.

Not only is it a "home port job" to increase the elevation of the 15" guns, it is a pull the turrets from the ship and return to the factory for rebuild.

HMS Vanguard was laid ordered in March 1941 and laid down in Oct. As part of her construction 4 of the 5 gun pits at the H&W gun factory on the Clyde had to be dug out to allow modernisation of the 15" turrets destined for her. The gun pits at Elswick and Barrow were occupied completing 14" turrets for Anson & Howe. And the Admiralty still harboured hopes of building the follow on 16" Lions. There is simply no capacity to do anything meaningful to those turrets in 1942.

There is absolutely no hope of Repulse receiving any kind of major refit, minor upgrades to AA & radar comparable to what was being done to the Rs and Malaya at this time is all that can be expected. She simply cannot be spared.

At the beginning of Nov 1941 the RN had 16 capital ships in service (5 QE, 4 R, R&R, 2 Nelrods, 3 KGV) with Nelson under repair. Setting aside the future of Repulse & PoW, by the end of the year Barham had been sunk and QE and Valiant seriously damaged and out of action for 19 & 7 months respectively.

And completion of Anson & Howe is still months away following suspensions in 1940 and assorted other delays.

The RN needs every capital ship it can get.

What about HMS Prince of Wales? I'd be tempted to leave her at Ceylon to await the Far East Fleet. Though the prospect of PoW (and Repulse, if above upgrades delayed or completed) joining the RN forces to catch the Feb 1942 Channel Dash might be a good use.

Orders of Battle - Operation Cerberus - Battles of the Atlantic and Arctic - World War II - NavWeaps

navweaps.com

Home Fleet

Sir John Tovey refused to risk the one effectively available battleship, HMS King George V, in the Channel, so close to the U-boats bases and Luftwaffe bomber bases. Of the Home Fleet battleships available in the second week of February 1942:

• HMS King George V - Watching the Tirpitz.
• HMS Duke of York - Working up and would not join the Fleet until the end of the month.
• HMS Rodney - Too slow to catch Scharnhorst, Gneisenau or Prinz Eugen, and was in need of another refit.
• HMS Renown - Force H. In the UK to escort a troop convoy to the Middle East.

How far the navy had fallen in this regard. In Nov 1918, excluding seventeen predreadnoughts, the Royal Navy had forty-two battleships/battlecruisers in service. And by Feb 1942, the navy can't field a single battleship when the majority of the KM surface fleet is sailing right past Felixstowe. Perhaps this is where the survivors of Force Z can help - though who knows, with the U-Boats and Luftwaffe nearby perhaps PoW and Repulse are doomed after all.

Those large fleets of capital ships were unaffordable post 1918, and their replacement even more so. That is why we got the the 1922 Washington Treaty and 1930 London Treaty. Unaffordable, not only for us but for the rest of the world. Hence the reduction to 15 by 1932, a number the USN was also restricted to.

Renown had been with Force H until Aug 1941 when she returned home for refit. On completion at the end of the year she was retained in the Home Fleet, despite what might have been planned. That proved to be needed when KGV needed repairs from May after ramming an sinking her destroyer escort, Punjabi.

DoY was fully occupied from 13 Dec 1941 until the end of Jan 1942 when she was engaged on the vital task of taking Churchill and his party to Washington for the Arcadia Conference with the Americans, from which arose the creation of ABDA Command. That delayed her work up following her completion at the end of Oct 1941.

The RN always believed it needed two fully worked up fast capital ships, ideally KGVs, to tackle Tirpitz. Without DoY the Home Fleet needed Renown as the more capable of the R&R pair.

In early 1942 Force H was rebuilt around the old Eagle & Malaya. They departed for Gibraltar as escort for the troop convoy WS16 in mid-Feb 1942.

 

[Shortround6]

How far the navy had fallen in this regard. In Nov 1918, excluding seventeen predreadnoughts, the Royal Navy had forty-two battleships/battlecruisers in service. And by Feb 1942, the navy can't field a single battleship when the majority of the KM surface fleet is sailing right past Felixstowe

Keeping old crap was done several times since the 1860s, before that there wasn't much difference between ships/guns of 1700 and before and ships/guns of 1830 so keeping 80 year old ships worked. Trying to use an 1870s Iron clad in 1904 would have been suicide.

gun.................elelvation.............................projectile weight.........................range (nearest 100yds)
12in/45............13 1/2......................................850...............................................18,600
12in/50............15..............................................850...............................................21,000
13.5in/45........20.........................................1250/1400.....................................23,400/23,200
15in/42...........20...............................................1920 (4crh)...............................23,400
15in/42...........30...............................................1920 (4crh)...............................29,000
16in/45...........40................................................2048..........................................37,300 (AP)
14in/45...........40................................................1590...........................................36,300

There are different 15in shells that are more streamline and there were supercharges to give more range at the same elevations at the cost of more gun wear.

As EwenS has explained getting any major change in elevation requires pulling the guns and rebuilding the mounts and elevating mechanisms.
The next problem is that the old ships were not designed to take fire coming in at steep angles. That was one of the reasons for the 3000 tons of extra armor allowed for Washington treaty rebuilds. It wasn't just for bombs (from 1920s airplanes?) but to handle shells hitting the decks at steeper angles.

Hood and Repulse never got upgraded deck armor or not enough. The only reason to upgrade the WW I ships was to keep to the treaties, new construction would have given much more capabilities for the money invested and the older ships sent to breakers.

The treaty 8in cruisers became defacto 2nd class battleships. The most powerful gun armed ships the treaty would allow.
Without the treaty the naval arms race of the 1920s/30s would have had some major changes and once you figure in that only the US had any hope of affording the race thigs get really weird.

 

[EwenS]

For the RN, the reconstructions that took place in the 1930s were about extending the life of an old ship to ensure it remained effective going forward. They were not intended to replace new construction when that became possible from 1937.

Barham represents the last ship to be given the 1920s round of modifications.

So in the first round of 1930s mods, roughly 1933-36, Repulse, Malaya and Warspite were to be given "large repairs". When they opened up Warspite's engines they found them to be in such bad condition that they needed replaced. So the opportunity was taken to incorporate some of the changes planned for the next batch. So she becomes a kind of half way house between Malaya & Valiant.

Royal Oak was also modernised in this period before it was decided to do minimal work to the rest of the R class and treat them as the first to be replaced.

Renown, Valiant & QE form the next round 1936-39 with new machinery, secondary armament etc.

The next group would have been Hood, Nelson & Rodney starting about 1940. Beyond that sources vary as to what would then have happened to Barham, Repulse and Malaya.

As for increasing the elevation of the main armament, there was a disagreement between the US and Britain through the 1920s and into the early 1930s as to whether(US) or not (Britain) this was permitted under the Washington Treaty.

For the US they had leapfrogged Britain with the Tennessee class by going from 15 degrees to 30 degrees. Most of the older US ships, (except New York, Texas & Arkansas) had their elevation increased in the 1920s

In contrast Britain had been at 20 degrees and went to 30 degrees in Hood. The RN finally accepted a fait accompli on the point and from Warspite's large repair began to modify the older ships to 30 degrees as they came in for reconstruction.

 

[Shortround6]

Things that seem easy at first glance are often harder than they appear.

Improving the Repulses air defense is easy. It was so bad that most anything would have been an improvement. The trouble is that Improvement that the Renown got was impossible without the full refit.
". The ship's engines and boilers were replaced by Parsons geared turbines and eight Admiralty three-drum boilers operating at 400 psi (2,758 kPa; 28 kgf/cm2).[26] This saved some 2,800 long tons (2,800 t) of weight and allowed the two forward boiler rooms to be converted to 4.5-inch (110 mm) magazines and other uses."

It is much harder than unbolting the existing guns and bolting new ones to deck plates.
One class of British cruisers had the 4in AA guns located 150 ft from the ammunition hoists. You need a lot of men carrying ammo from the ammo hoists to the guns if you want to keep up a good rate of fire.

Pulling the 6 single 4in AA guns and 4in low angle guns ( three triples)

which used different ammo frees up deck space and top weight but you need good ammo handling (and capacity) and directors to get the best effect.
The British twin 4in was very popular but production could not keep pace with demand for a large part of the war.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Not only is it a "home port job" to increase the elevation of the 15" guns, it is a pull the turrets from the ship and return to the factory for rebuild.

I didn't suggest a main gun elevation increase was in the cards. I was sending Repulse back to Rosyth to complete installation of her radar and AA guns. I don't think any British battleships will be taken out of wartime service to undergo such extensive work as you suggest - that's an interwar project.

 

[don4331]

One class of British cruisers had the 4in AA guns located 150 ft from the ammunition hoists. You need a lot of men carrying ammo from the ammo hoists to the guns if you want to keep up a good rate of fire.

Pulling the 6 single 4in AA guns and 4in low angle guns ( three triples)
View attachment 700787
which used different ammo frees up deck space and top weight but you need good ammo handling (and capacity) and directors to get the best effect.
The British twin 4in was very popular but production could not keep pace with demand for a large part of the war.

Some minor corrections:
The Renown class (Renown & Repulse) as built had 2 single and 5 triple 4"/45 BL Mk.9 guns (Low Angle - LA mounts; max 30* elevation). So, all the guns used same ammo. They also had 2 - 12 pdr (3")/45 20cwt QF HA Mk. II guns for AAA (remember this is '16). During her '33-34 refit, Repulse receive 2 - twin 4"/45 QF Mk XV guns (the 1st prototypes)) losing 2 triple and 4 single mounts in process (which added the different ammo), and in Sept '39 the aft triple was replaced with octuple 2pdr pom-pom mount. (We will note the 6" triple mounts lacked power assist, so were very slow to rotate, WWI anti torpedo boat defense, not WWII AAA).

During the '33-34 refit, remaining 4" single mounts were recited but I don't know if the guns were changed to 4"/45 QF Mk XV or just repositioned. They also removed the torpedo room, so there was some space for magazines.

Replacing the last 2 triple 4" turrets with twin DP mounts wouldn't be that major a job - pull the turret, cover the hole and install twin mount. The hoist system for the triples would supply 36 rpm; the twin only fired 18... Unfortunately, the guns were in high demand, and Repulse had relatively good AAA for pre-war.

The Edinburgh class had magazines concentrated for protection purposes under the Treaty weight limits. But, there was a trough from the ammo hoist (which ends ~deck above) to the guns (think roller coaster) which allow the rounds to slide from the hoist to the mount. No one is carrying rounds from the hoist to the gun. (Now in rough seas, supply might be intermittent but the average would be slightly more than the firing rate of the mount).

 

[Shortround6]

The 4in MK IXs used different ammo than the 4in MK XVs or the 4in MK MK V AA guns. The MK IXs used bag charges.
The guns all had different times of flight so even mixing MK Vs and MK XVI guns (which replaced the MK XV guns of which only 6 were built)

Repulse had good large AA for 1937-38, it sucked for 1939/40. Most of the British cruisers were up grading from four MK Vs to four twin MK XVIs (8 barrels) as fast as they could be supplied.
BTW it was the Arethusa class that had the distance problem from the hoists to the guns. Magazines were where the Leanders had them but the Arethusa's had the guns much further aft about 200ft. The Penelope and Aurora completed with four twin MK XVIs while Arethusa and Galatea were upgraded later (Arethusa in late 41/early 42).
The Repulse was carrying three triple 4in mounts when she was lost. The octuple 2pd mount on the aft superstructure replaced the old upper triple 4in mount, the lower one stayed.
It can be seen in a photo of the Repulse leaving Singapore on Dec 8th.
Just adding barrels would have been an improvement but a much better improvement would have been a more integrated system with better directors.
The Repulse should have had 6-8 twin 4in mounts considering her importance.

 

[southjn1982]

With Singapore being the RN planned main base in the Far East there were stocks of 15" AP there. But when a request was made in Jan 1942 for 15" HE for the Singapore guns, arrangements were made to have that sent from stocks held in Egypt. They did not arrive in time.

I've never come across any details of arrangements for the resupply of ammunition for PoW in the event of war in the Far East. But it was mid-1944 before any other KGV operated east of Suez.

While Singapore was very important the admiralty wanted to use it as a forward base for surging into the South Pacific they intended Columbo to be the main command and control hub