GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Unfortunately the German flak crews didn't get the memo before Operation Bodenplatte.
Can some of the explanation for the P-38's greater success in the Pacific be attributed to poorer Japanese pilots?
- Thread starter NTGray
- Start date
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Shortround6
Major General
See;
Note the main page.
** Time to climb to 20,000ft.............................................7.6 minutes
** 5 minutes at 1150hp per engine, 2.9(?) minutes at 1000hp per engine.
now on the chart 5 minutes will take the plane to 14,000ft starting at 3000fp and ending at 2600fpm.
Cutting the throttle to 2600rpm cuts the rate of climb to 2200fpm at 14,000ft and the plane will be climbing at 1950fpm at 20,000ft.
However if the plane was cruising at 20,000ft and the throttle was slammed forward the P-38F could climb at around 2300fpm.
Like a lot of things sometimes the performance numbers are taken out of context. Sometimes due to laziness, sometimes in an effort to keep things simple (but winds up confusing people) and sometime because the writer has an agenda and is trying to prove a point.
Note the main page.
** Time to climb to 20,000ft.............................................7.6 minutes
** 5 minutes at 1150hp per engine, 2.9(?) minutes at 1000hp per engine.
now on the chart 5 minutes will take the plane to 14,000ft starting at 3000fp and ending at 2600fpm.
Cutting the throttle to 2600rpm cuts the rate of climb to 2200fpm at 14,000ft and the plane will be climbing at 1950fpm at 20,000ft.
However if the plane was cruising at 20,000ft and the throttle was slammed forward the P-38F could climb at around 2300fpm.
Like a lot of things sometimes the performance numbers are taken out of context. Sometimes due to laziness, sometimes in an effort to keep things simple (but winds up confusing people) and sometime because the writer has an agenda and is trying to prove a point.
Greg Boeser
2nd Lieutenant
By that time all German flak gunners took for granted anything in the air was enemy. Thus the memo.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The sad thing about Bodenplatte, is the Partridge that downed an Fw190D was never recognized for an award...
Wild_Bill_Kelso
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,231
- Mar 18, 2022
The stealth aircraft carrier and stealth fighters and bombers were a huge success in terms of their main goal- stealth. The problem is the project, known as Raumtransitschnellevernichtungüberlegenekraft was too successful. Using a method similar to the high energy space-time shift attempted during the infamous "Philadelphia Experiment" in the US, the German hardware and crews were actually sent into another parallel dimension, from which they could see all their targets while remaining completely invisible and also totally safe from Allied attack, but it turns out their bombs and bullets remained in the alternate universe and failed to have any impact on Allied targets. Worse, the aircraft, ships and crews remained stuck in the alternative dimension through the end of the war... some say they are still there, lost and forlorn...
Thumpalumpacus
Major
... and fresh out of cigarettes ...
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
There were training squadrons stateside and they were designated as such. Once deployed operational units may do in-unit training for in theater familiarization or aircraft transitional training but they were still an operational combat unit and once it was determined that the unit was combat ready, they flew operational missions.
OTU is a British term,
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
But they were dedicated training squadrons and I don't think they ever used the term "OTU."
Wild_Bill_Kelso
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,231
- Mar 18, 2022
I thought the 475th FG was basically a P-38 training unit that was also a fighting unit...
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Noooooo - it trained up and then went into combat with fangs fully exposed!
In just two years of service, from August 1943 until August 1945, the 475th Fighter Group completed 3,042 missions and shot down 551 enemy aircraft
Unit History - The 475th Fighter Group Historical Foundation
5th Air Force - Southwest Pacific Area - WWII The 475th Fighter, "Satan's Angels" came into being at a critical stage in the war in the Southwest Pacific area. In January 1943, four months before the 475th Fighter Group was activated
475th.org
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
OK - the AAF did use the term but it was not in the same context as the RAF. Wiki does break this one down very well. The difference that I can see is the RAF OTUs did roll into combat where the AAF OTU s were stateside.
en.wikipedia.org
Operational - Replacement Training Units - Wikipedia
Greg Boeser
2nd Lieutenant
Operational Training Units were set up in 1942 to stand up combat groups. They consisted of a cadre of flying and ground instructors to train up units preparing for overseas deployment. Later these were converted to Replacement Training Units when the priority shifted to maintaining strength in units already deployed.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Yes - point being they were not operating in theater
Greg Boeser
2nd Lieutenant
True. In theater there were Combat Crew Replacement Centers, which provided incoming flying personnel with theater familiarization and additional training prior to being transferred to a combat unit.
Wild_Bill_Kelso
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,231
- Mar 18, 2022
Wasn't the 475th FG the one that Lindburgh and the other Lockheed reps went to to teach them improved maintenance and flying techniques with the P-38? The whole low rpm high manifold pressure trick for better fuel economy?
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Grumman_Fan
Recruit
- 1
- Jul 3, 2023
Thanks for linking the article. I read it, and it gives me a pretty good idea of why Tilley may have been able to turn with a Ki-43 in a P-38.
So Tilley's account mentions that the P-38 was doing about 90 mph in this turn engagement. I think that particular range of speed is a huge factor, due to a specific advantage the P-38 holds near stall speeds:
Assuming the Ki-43 was flying at a similar speed (90 mph), this would not just be considered a low speed engagement, but an EXTREMELY low speed engagement at that. This is so slow that both aircraft are approaching their stall speeds. In this type of extremely low-speed fight, the P-38 has a distinct advantage in the fact that its counter rotating props mean that the Lighting does not have the one-sided torque twist that you have to manage with single-engined fighters, allowing it to perform aggressive turning maneuvers right at the threshold of its stall speed. On the other hand, a single engined, single propeller plane like the Ki-43 does have to worry about propeller torque at extremely low speeds. I'm going to make a speculation, and this is just a speculation: while the Ki-43 does have good low-speed maneuverability due to it's high wing loading, I wonder if that low speed maneuverability that is often described, would be more around the 120-150 mph range. In other words, fairly slow, but not the 90 mph levels of slow that this fight occurred at, where the P-38's controllability at near stall speed would make the Lighting driver more willing to push his aircraft hard enough to overcome the Ki-43's superior wing loading.
I also say this because Tilley mentions that this fight takes place below 1000 feet, which I think is a crucial factor in allowing Tilley to get behind the Oscar: if this were at higher altitude where there was room to safely bail out and parachute, the Ki-43 pilot probably would be more willing to risk turning tighter at this low speed, because even if he did spin out of control due to propeller torque/spin at low speed, (which as mentioned is an issue that the P-38 lacks with it's neutral torque characteristics from the counter rotating props), the Japanese pilot would have able to recover from the spin at higher altitude.
But my hypothesis is that because this fight took place pretty much at the deck, even though the Oscar pilot MAY have been able to turn tighter, doing so might have risked him going into a spin due to him having to deal with propeller torque at extremely low speeds, which as discussed is and issue that the P-38 did not struggle with. And because the altitude at which this engagement took place was below parachute level, it is natural to speculate that the Japanese pilot did not want to push his plane hard enough to run the risk of spinning out, because at the altitude he was at, this would result in certain death, maybe even more certain, in his mind, that having a P-38 right behind you. The P-38 does not have that risk, and to some extent can sustain sharp turns risk-free right up to its stall speed.
While the Ki-43 is known by all of us for it's low speed maneuverability, I suspect most low-speed fights that took place against allied planes where more in the range of 120-150 mph, which is slow, but perhaps not slow enough that the prop torque became a serious factor. A turning engagement at 90 MPH on the other hand, is not just slow; it's EXTREMELY slow, being right on the threshold of stall speed where an aircraft's ability to stay in the air can definitely can be influenced by the prop torque during sharp maneuvering. I suspect most other instances in which allied pilots made the mistake of turning at low speeds with the Ki-43 may have been more around the 120-150 mph realm where the prop torque just isn't as much of an issue, and therefore at fights in this speed range, Oscar pilots would have been more willing to use their maximum turn ability. Just a speculation on my part, but it does have some reasoning behind it. Tilley's encounter with the Oscar may have been one of the very few scenarios in which low speed may have worked AGAINST a Japanese aircraft, rather that in it's favor.
Also worth mentioning that while both the Ki-43 and A6M are better at low speed fights, the Zero might take the edge over even the nimble Oscar, due to the A6M being designed as a carrier fighter and thus needing to have the best low-speed handling reasonably possible. Conversely, I have also read that although the Oscar wasn't exactly the best at high speed maneuvers, it didn't lock up quite as bad as the Zero. So while both aircraft have similar performance characteristics and fighting styles, one is slightly better suited to higher speed maneuvers that the other, and one may be better suited for low speed maneuvers. Something to consider.
TLDR: the Ki-43 turns better than the Lighting, however, my speculation is that a P-38 pilot would be more willing to push his aircraft at extremely low speeds, due to the counter rotating props negating the spin characteristics that are induced by having a single prop turn in a singular direction near stall speed. The Ki-43 pilot probably could have turning tighter, but didn't want to risk it.
Unfortunately Joe passed away a few months ago. Just in case you were hoping for a response from him.
GregP
Major
An A6M almost never hit 350 kts. Maybe straight down.
swampyankee
Chief Master Sergeant
- 4,030
- Jun 25, 2013
I suspect the idea that Japanese military pilots were inferior to those of the Luftwaffe, especially before mid-1943, is specious.
