Combat Altitude throughout WW2

[fastmongrel]

I have been looking at combat reports from the Battle of France and it seems to me that most combat took place around 10,000ft/3,000m. The altitude of combats at the start of the Battle of Britain (June and July) seem to have been around the same altitude but went higher till at the end of the daytime combat it was up to as much as 25,000ft/7,500m.

I dont know much about the heights combat went to after 1940 but did regular combat ever take place at more than 25,000ft/7,500m. I know there were some occasions like Darwin that were up to 30,000/9,000m but was that an exception not the rule.

Can anyone give me some ideas of the usual combat heights for various campaigns and regions.

 

[P-39 Expert]

I have been looking at combat reports from the Battle of France and it seems to me that most combat took place around 10,000ft/3,000m. The altitude of combats at the start of the Battle of Britain (June and July) seem to have been around the same altitude but went higher till at the end of the daytime combat it was up to as much as 25,000ft/7,500m.

I dont know much about the heights combat went to after 1940 but did regular combat ever take place at more than 25,000ft/7,500m. I know there were some occasions like Darwin that were up to 30,000/9,000m but was that an exception not the rule.

Can anyone give me some ideas of the usual combat heights for various campaigns and regions.

Not much going on above 26000' (8kmeters). You flew at the altitude of the bombers, highest flying of those were the turbocharged B-17 and B-24 at 25000', to escort or intercept you should be 1000' above, not much reason to go any higher.

Most all the medium bombers on both sides operated under 15000'. The Japanese Bettys operated between 18000' and 22000'.

Specialized missions like recon could go higher. But combat day in day out under 26000'.

I'd take any mention of combat at 30000' (especially involving bombers) with a grain of salt. It may have appeared that way to an observer, but that was higher than the ceiling of most all bombers.

 

[YF12A]

My neighbor told me the regular altitudes for the B-17's and B-24's were between 22,000 and 27,000 ft. depending on the mission and the weather. He also said one time he wanted to see how high he could get an unloaded B-17 up to and I think he said he got it up to 39,000 ft. where it just slid off on a wing, very controllable, and that was it.

 

[eagledad]

Gentlemen,


I have gone through mission reports of the 20th FG group from 12/28/44 through 4/10/44 and recorded the highest altitude flown by the top cover squadron. It appears that the other 2 group squadrons would be 1 to 2 thousand feet below those heights. For these 46 missions I have the following data:

For the P-38's of the 20th Fighter Group from 12/28/43 through 4/10/44, the average max height flown by the group was a little more than 24,000 feet. The highest mission by a top squadron was 34,000 feet flown 1/11/44, the lowest flown was 3/2/44 at 13000.

Source: The 20th Fighter Group Project

My late uncle was a ball turret gunner on a 15th Air Force, 483rd BG B-17 from mid-August 1944 through early November 1944.

The average bombing height for his squadron during that time frame was slightly higher than 26000 feet. Highest altitude bombed from, 30000 feet (Ploesti and Pilsen), lowest altitude 18000 feet (Boroyogan, Yugoslavia). His group was escorted by both P-38's and P-51's. Going through his diary, it is apparent that the real deep missions (based on time his bomber was in the air) were escorted by P-51's, while the relatively shorter missions were either P-38's, P-51's or a mixture of both.

For your information

Eagledad

 

[fastmongrel]

My neighbor told me the regular altitudes for the B-17's and B-24's were between 22,000 and 27,000 ft. depending on the mission and the weather. He also said one time he wanted to see how high he could get an unloaded B-17 up to and I think he said he got it up to 39,000 ft. where it just slid off on a wing, very controllable, and that was it.

That's above the altitude where you can breathe without some form of pressurisation or a pressure suit.

I know some unpressurized Spitfire's went that high chasing Ju86 recon planes but the pilots suffered and needed a pressurised jerkin to give their lungs something to work against.

 

[Shortround6]

During the BoB air combat may have been at 25,000ft or so but the planes often flew a few thousand feet higher to order to get the bounce.

If you fly at 28,000ft and dive down several thousand feet before firing guns at what altitude did the "combat" take place?

The British, either during or just after the BoB figured the "combat" ceiling of a fighter as the height at which it could still climb at 1000ft/sec.
Operational height was thehight as which it could climb 500fps (allowed for formation flights, small formations with the poorest performing plane not dropping out of formation).

The Human body can withstand (to some degree) those heights in the 30,000ft range for short periods of time. The higher the altitude the shorter the period of time even on oxygen. Spending 15-30 minutes at 30,000ft is a whole lot different than spending several hours there. (early Spits and 109s didn't have enough fuel to spend long periods of time at high altitudes)

Please note that the air at 38,000ft is 75% of the pressure that air at 32,000ft is so things are changing pretty quickly in that 6,000ft band percentage wise even of the actual change is only 2in HG.

 

[Greyman]

I read an ORS report where they mentioned the majority of Spitfire and Tempest combats from Oct '44 to May '45 took place under 5,000 feet.

 

[billrunnels]

I have been looking at combat reports from the Battle of France and it seems to me that most combat took place around 10,000ft/3,000m. The altitude of combats at the start of the Battle of Britain (June and July) seem to have been around the same altitude but went higher till at the end of the daytime combat it was up to as much as 25,000ft/7,500m.

I dont know much about the heights combat went to after 1940 but did regular combat ever take place at more than 25,000ft/7,500m. I know there were some occasions like Darwin that were up to 30,000/9,000m but was that an exception not the rule.

Can anyone give me some ideas of the usual combat heights for various campaigns and regions.

On 02/16/45 our squadron(360th, 303rdbg) bombed a synthetic oil plant at Langendreer, Germany from 28,300 ft. The B-17 could reach the 30,000 ft ceiling. However, the average mission was about 25,000 ft.

 

[wuzak]

I read an ORS report where they mentioned the majority of Spitfire and Tempest combats from Oct '44 to May '45 took place under 5,000 feet.

That'd be ground support operations?

 

[billrunnels]

That'd be ground support operations?

I would think so.

 

[Greyman]

Combats arising from ground strafing sorties, yeah.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

The British, either during or just after the BoB figured the "combat" ceiling of a fighter as the height at which it could still climb at 1000ft/sec.

WOW! Almost the speed of sound, straight up! Now THAT'S performance!

 

[Shortround6]

Another brain fart/typo

 

[P-39 Expert]

All the rest of us read that and didn't think a thing about it. Except X.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

All the rest of us read that and didn't think a thing about it. Except X.

I categorically DENY being an error-intolerant bigot!
Cheers,
Wes

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Another brain fart/typo

It's hell getting old, ain't it? Touch screens get smaller, fingers get fatter, and memory gets shorter. Don't feel like the Lone Ranger.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Please note that the air at 38,000ft is 75% of the pressure that air at 32,000ft is so things are changing pretty quickly in that 6,000ft band percentage wise even of the actual change is only 2in HG.

That particular 2" HG exactly straddles the minimum safe partial pressure of O2 in the bloodstream of a human breathing pure O2 at ambient pressure. 35-36K MSL is about where a regulator operating in an unpressurized cockpit switches to pressure breathing mode.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[Shortround6]

Thank you. We know that pilots/crew did fly into the upper 30,000ft altitudes, they just didn't stay there very long compared to cruising at those altitudes.
Pressure cabins of about 2 psi were planned/built for several aircraft (Spitfire and 109) but air operations never really got there during WW II making them unnecessary in the overall scheme of things.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Thank you. We know that pilots/crew did fly into the upper 30,000ft altitudes

(A little off topic) John Glenn flew his F-8 transcon in Project Bullet, pressure breathing all the way after his cockpit pressurization failed on the climb out. He got brief respites when he had to drop to lower altitudes to tank along the way. There were no KA-3s available, so he had to go down to AJ-1K altitudes and speeds to get a topoff.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[fastmongrel]

The Mk VII Spitfire with pressurised cabin extended wing tips and Merlin 71 could do 416 mph at 44,000 feet, was in production for nearly 2 years but only 140 were built. That's barely enough for 2 squadrons I think it shows how important stratospheric combat was.

My original question wasn't about the ultimate height of combat but how high did combat take place regularly. I have been doing some research and so far I haven't come across a report of anything higher than 30,000feet and it's noticeable how fast combat descended when battle commenced.