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The CAP prevented any merchant ship losses prior to the carriers having to turn back due to the proximity of Sicily. The battle was decided by the Sea Hurricanes because had Axis AF strike aircraft sank even one or two merchant ships prior to the carriers turning back then Malta might have been starved into submission.
I need to go but have found a more detailed description of the Fulmar vs D 520 combat in Dust Clouds in the Middle East.Yes, in 1942 a Fulmar (from HMS Eagle IIRC) shot down a D520 during an engagement with Vichy AF fighters.
I need to go but have found a more detailed description of the Fulmar vs D 520 combat in Dust Clouds in the Middle East.
Two D 520 saw Fulmars of 803 Squadron and approached to attack when Lt Martin reporte he was about to attack when he was shot down by a fighter. The British attributed the shooting down to AA fire from the ships.
What's interesting is what comes next. 6 x D 520 in three flights of two aircraft saw six x Fulmars and attacked claiming three Fulmars shot down. 803 Squadron lost three Fulmars that day with one crew picked up. A fourth was so badly damaged it was written off and a fifth was damaged. The losses were so bad the RN had to request the RAF to provide additional fighter cover for the fleet.
Most of the D 520 were damaged to some degree by the aa fire from the ships.
Doesn't sound very decisive to me. How many a/c did those Hurris shoot down or deter before exiting the battle? How many Axis planes were able to attack due to their short range?
Jeez, man read the thread... Over 200 Axis strike sorties were engaged by the CAP prior to the carriers having to turn back and no ships were lost due to aerial attack. Sea Hurricanes splashed about 20 Axis aircraft, IIRC.
I'm thinking Wildcats did that pretty often around Guadalcanal, too.
When?
24 planes on 7-8 Aug 42.
I wouldn't be to sure of the bounce as a reason for the losses. After all they were Naval fighters over the fleet that has a modern set of radars and a very experience fighter control.That was a flight of Fulmars that were bounced by D520s during the Battle for Syria.
In June 1941 radar was still rare in the eastern MTO and naval radar always had problems detecting aircraft flying over land. According to Dust Clouds over the Middle East, the Fulmars encountered two D520s, and (according to a French pilot) shot one down, but RN AA gunners also claimed it, the surviving D520s returned to a nearby base, and informed command that 6 Fulmars were patrolling over the fleet, and they promptly despatched 6 D520s who bounced the Fulmars, shooting down three.I wouldn't be to sure of the bounce as a reason for the losses. After all they were Naval fighters over the fleet that has a modern set of radars and a very experience fighter control.
At the very least they would have had some warning that the enemy aircraft were approaching.
[...] several were shot down by F4Fs [...]
[...]18 Bettys were lost, 13 from AA and 5 x CAP.
18 + "several" = ?
Here, how many airplanes did the Sea Hurri shoot down in combat, total? The Wildcat in its varios forms shot down around 1300. What's the SH got? The Wildcat has about 6:1 kill ratio, too. Got any Hurri numbers about that?
I'm really not convinced that a Sea Hurricane was very useful. Feel free to educate me further, but be aware I'm pretty skeptical of its impact on the naval war.
The actual kill loss rate of the F4F is probably worse than for the Fulmar or Sea Hurricane. Actual Sea Hurricane kill-combat loss rate for PQ18, Harpoon and Pedestal was 33-9. I'd guesstimate that total kills versus combat losses was about 50-60 - ~15.
The Fulmar's kill loss rate was about 3-1; 89 actual kills versus 34 losses as detailed by Shores et al, in various Books, in the MTO, and IOTO
You need to read Lundstrom's two volume First Team, which looks at almost all USN naval air combat in the Pacific in 1942.
Hurricanes claimed more than 6000 ea destroyed in WW2, more than any other allied fighter. Front line service from the very beginning of the war to the end
Claims, no source docs for confirmation then? We get to use claims for the hurricane but not the F4F?The source is , The hawker Hurricane by Francis K Mason. No break down into theaters is provided.
From who? Why don't you Google that yourself and tell us?I'm still waiting to hear how many planes the Sea Hurricane shot down through the course of the war.
From who? Why don't you Google that yourself and tell us?
I don't think that data exists, at least no anything I've seen online. For the FAA the MTO was mostly a Fulmar affair, the I/PTO one of the Seafire, Martlet, Hellcat and Corsair. I think the Sea Hurricane wasn't given the opportunity to shine. Replace all the Fulmars in the MTO with Sea Hurricanes and we should see good kill numbers, and maybe fewer carrier hits.I wanted to hear it from the guy who was arguing the SH was the more significant airplane. I'm having trouble finding totals myself, but I reckoned that him arguing so vigorously for its effectiveness meant that he had data.