Corsair VS Spitfire

[CORSNING]

Shortround is pretty much dead on right. The 57 gallon (215 litre) wing tanks in
the early F4U-1s were not self sealing but they did have a carbon dioxide dilution
system with the supply cylinder in the fuselage. The early F4U-1 up through the
F4U-1C had the 261 gallon (998-litre) fuselage tank with the ability to carry 175
gallon (662+litre) externally. The F4U-1D only had 237 gallon (897 litre) fuselage
tank but had the capability to carry 300 gallon (1,135+litre) externally just like the
F4U-4. The F4U-4's internal capacity was 234 gallon (886-litre).

 

[Juha2]

only 305 gallons internal fuel
About three times as much as a Spitfire or Me-109. Thus the newer F4U had a loiter capability a Spitfire could never hope to match.

Spit Mk VII and VIII carried 122 IMPgal (146.5 USgal) internally. Mk XIVE also carried 109,5 IMPgal (131,5 USgal) internally and could have a 31 IMP gal (37 USgal) rear fuselage tank.

Checked the fuel figures from Morgan & Shacklady Spitfire book. Even if Mk XIV was in essence a re-engined Mk VIII with some structural strenghtening, its main lower fuel tank was smaller and it seems that when the rear fuselage tankage was used they only installed the lower tank. So I corrected the figures.

 

[wuzak]

Perhaps fuel capacity discussion should be in litres so that we know we are all talking about the same thing?

 

[CORSNING]

Mr. Wuzak has a valid point. I modified my post #21.

 

[CORSNING]

I have been looking over my files on these two aircraft. I have all the
performance figures, but they just don't tell the whole story. You can't
put a figure on all the well placed armor of the Corsair or its life saving
extra fuel capacity. It does not have the silk scarf fluttering around the
neck flamboyancy of the Spitfire. It was just a 6-ton in your face piece
of hardware that could get the job done type of vehicle. With that said
I will attempt to put some numbers in place for the numerically minded
(like myself).
From 1 August 1938 when No.19 became operational with their Mk.I
Spitfires until 28 December 1942 when VMF-124 became operational
with their F4U-1s the Spitfire was uncontested in this matchup. Sooo,
the Spitfire takes it hands down for the first four years.

Jeff

 

[wuzak]

I have been looking over my files on these two aircraft. I have all the
performance figures, but they just don't tell the whole story. You can't
put a figure on all the well placed armor of the Corsair or its life saving
extra fuel capacity.

How much extra fuel capacity?

How much fuel does the R-2800 burn compared to the Griffon?

 

[Shortround6]

How much extra fuel capacity?

How much fuel does the R-2800 burn compared to the Griffon?

At high power outputs probably more. it burned up to 240imp gallons an hour at worst (water injection actually lowered fuel consumption)
but throttled way back at low altitude (aux supercharger in neutral) it burned between 35 and 42 imp gallons an hour (570-800hp)

Max lean cruise was 69-77 imp gallons an hour depending on altitude and supercharger gear.

 

[CORSNING]

How much extra fuel capacity?

How much fuel does the R-2800 burn compared to the Griffon?

Thank you shortround. I do not have the exact figures of fuel usage at normal,
military and combat power for these engines. All I do have is that the normal
ranges were:
Spitfire XII: 329 ml./263 mph. & 493 ml./maximum external.
Spitfire XIV: 460 ml./245 mph. & 850 ml./maximum external.
F4U-1D: 1,015 ml./normal cruise, 1,562 ml./179 mph., 2,215 ml./1,135 L external.
F4U-4: 840 ml./172 mph., 1,100+ml./568- L. external 1,560 ml./1,135 L external.

 

[wuzak]

Thank you shortround. I do not have the exact figures of fuel usage at normal,
military and combat power for these engines. All I do have is that the normal
ranges were:
Spitfire XII: 329 ml./263 mph. & 493 ml./maximum external.
Spitfire XIV: 460 ml./245 mph. & 850 ml./maximum external.
F4U-1D: 1,015 ml./normal cruise, 1,562 ml./179 mph., 2,215 ml./1,135 L external.
F4U-4: 840 ml./172 mph., 1,100+ml./568- L. external 1,560 ml./1,135 L external.

What's normal cruise?

The other speeds you have are 179mph and 172mph for the F4U. A touch slow for a fighter in the ETO.

 

[CORSNING]

28 December 1942:
F4U-1 (Spitfire IX of 28 July 1942)

Altitude / Speed / Climb
Meters / mph / fpm
S.L.........348 / 3160 (311 / 3655)
1,000...347 / 2660 (326 / 3710)
2,000...345 / 2490 (341 / 3760)
3,000...358 / 2455 (356 / 3820)
4,000...370 / 2410 (371 / 3775)
5,000...384 / 2215 (380 / 3245)
6,000...386 / 1825 (380 / 2625)
7,000...395 / 1635 (377 / 2980)
8,000...387 / 1290 (398 / 2845)
9,000...371 /...985 (402 / 2355)

Maximums: 395 mph./6,949 m., 3160 fpm./S.L. (403 mph./8,354 m., 3860 fpm./
3,841 m.)

Service Ceiling: 38,500 ft. (43,400 ft.)

Wing Loading: 35.65 lb./sq. ft. (30.90 lb./sq. ft.)
Power Loading: 5.600 lb./hp. (4.780 lb./hp.)

Engine: P&W R-2800-8 (RR Merlin 61)
Engine power: 2,000 hp./54"Hg.[+12 lb.] ( (1,565 hp./+15 lb. boost [60"Hg.)

 

[CORSNING]

What's normal cruise?

The other speeds you have are 179mph and 172mph for the F4U. A touch slow for a fighter in the ETO.

I totally agree wuzak. At this moment I do not have any more information than that. You see, I am still on
holidays with the Mrs. and am having somewhat of a time of it finding time to do proper research.
My bad, but having soo much fun at this time. My apologies sir.

 

[Robert Porter]

Part of the agreement joining this forum was that you forgo a "normal" life! You have to agree to spend 90% of your time at the bench or in research. The other 10% you can freely use for sleep, drinking, eating, etc. But strictly no vacations allowed unless you take your bench with you!

 

[CORSNING]

Boy ain't that the truth!

And now the truth really comes out. Robert, I am currently doing the research on
the F4F/FM timeline. I have just finished the F2A timeline and have posted it
on the warbirds forum. I have also read through several books gathering handling
& performance for the various F2A / 39 series of aircraft from a pilots point of view.
So, you are right. I may be on a vacation for three days in the eyes of the Mrs. but
we all know where my mind and thoughts are.

 

[buffnut453]

We're a sad bunch!

 

[CORSNING]

Yep, and loving it.

 

[drgondog]

Can anyone point me to rigorous Cruise Tests for the F4U-1 and -4? Particularly any that touch on 25,000 feet.

I have never seen a Combat Radius prepared for F4U by USN with similar flight profiles to AAF P-38, P-47 and P-51. Anybody?

 

[buffnut453]

So, you are right. I may be on a vacation for three days in the eyes of the Mrs. but
we all know where my mind and thoughts are.

And we all know where that can lead. Tread carefully my friend!

 

[RCAFson]

Can anyone point me to rigorous Cruise Tests for the F4U-1 and -4? Particularly any that touch on 25,000 feet.

I have never seen a Combat Radius prepared for F4U by USN with similar flight profiles to AAF P-38, P-47 and P-51. Anybody?

Here's a comparison of the Corsair 1A / Spitfire VIII LF Trop / P-51B all at MECS @ 20K ft:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f4u/f4u-1a-ads.jpg
= 645/1100 miles with 192/325ig @[265mph-my mistake]248mph

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/Spitfire_LF_VIII_Trop_Aircraft_Data_Performance.jpg
= 740/940/1265 miles with 120/150/210ig @ 220mph.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/mustang-III-ads-3.jpg
=950/1710/2210 miles with 150/275ig/400ig @ 253mph

all aircraft have allowances for TO and climb.

 

[Shortround6]

Can anyone point me to rigorous Cruise Tests for the F4U-1 and -4? Particularly any that touch on 25,000 feet.

I have never seen a Combat Radius prepared for F4U by USN with similar flight profiles to AAF P-38, P-47 and P-51. Anybody?

I haven't seen one although we can work out fuel to altitude and combat (20 minute) consumptions.

I doubt very highly it is going to match the P-47 as the P-47 gets a bit of help from the turbo charger at high cruise speeds. F4U-1s had lousy exhaust thrust and would need to clutch in the Aux supercharger for high speed cruising in the mid 20,000ft neighborhood.

20 minute combat allowance is going to be about 80-90 US gallons (275-290 gallons an hour for military power Goes down a bit with water injection for WER but there is only 10 gallons of water injection fluid).

a 20 minute reserve an lowest fuel burn is about 13-14 gallons. 98-99 gallons so far?

Warm up and take off to 5000ft? a P-47 used 45 US gallons? For an F4U-1D with one 170 gallon drop tank you needed to warm up 24 1/4 gallons of oil before take-off, without drop tank they only put in 16 gallons of oil.

At what point in the take-off do you switch to drop tank/s? call it 32 gallons to help the figuring. 130 gallons allotted from the main 237 gallon tank. You have 107 gallons to get home with regardless of the size/number of drop tanks. perhaps an hour and 10/15 minutes?

 

[RCAFson]

I haven't seen one although we can work out fuel to altitude and combat (20 minute) consumptions.

I doubt very highly it is going to match the P-47 as the P-47 gets a bit of help from the turbo charger at high cruise speeds. F4U-1s had lousy exhaust thrust and would need to clutch in the Aux supercharger for high speed cruising in the mid 20,000ft neighborhood.

20 minute combat allowance is going to be about 80-90 US gallons (275-290 gallons an hour for military power Goes down a bit with water injection for WER but there is only 10 gallons of water injection fluid).

a 20 minute reserve an lowest fuel burn is about 13-14 gallons. 98-99 gallons so far?

Warm up and take off to 5000ft? a P-47 used 45 US gallons? For an F4U-1D with one 170 gallon drop tank you needed to warm up 24 1/4 gallons of oil before take-off, without drop tank they only put in 16 gallons of oil.

At what point in the take-off do you switch to drop tank/s? call it 32 gallons to help the figuring. 130 gallons allotted from the main 237 gallon tank. You have 107 gallons to get home with regardless of the size/number of drop tanks. perhaps an hour and 10/15 minutes?

This data card shows the allowance for TO, climb to 20k ft, 15min combat at 20k ft and 20 min cruise at 2000ft as 101-128ig, depending on fuel loading:
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f4u/corsair-II-III-ads-b.jpg

The Pilot's Notes Corsair I-IV state 192ig/hr at 5000ft @2700rpm with 52.5in boost. MECS at 5000ft = 69ig.