Corsair vs Zero

KraziKanuK · Feb 21, 2005

Soren, some other roll rates from that report.

300mph IAS

Fw190 - 128*/sec
Spit (clipped) - 116*/sec
Spit - 76*/sec
P-47C - 82*/sec
F4F-3 - 66*/sec
F6F-3 - 68*/sec
P-51B - 94*/sec
P-40F - 94*/sec
P-39D - 63*/sec

note: give or take a degree

Even the Grummans are 50% faster than the Zeke.

Soren · Feb 21, 2005

Yes but he said "stiff like Concrete" !

They are making it sound like it couldnt roll at all

Its not that i don't believe you Evangilder, not at all, but "Stiff like concrete" isnt that just overreacting a little ?

The Zero could roll at 340mph, but it would be slow (meaning a F6F Hellcat or any other could beat the Zero into the turn, and get a deflection-shot.)

Now Evangilder, if you could ask him about how the Zero A6M5 handles a loop at lets say 320mph and at below 10,000ft, then we could get that solved also.

Btw Evanglider don't get me wrong, I really appreciate that you toulk the time to ask a real Zero pilot

evangilder · Feb 21, 2005

The problem with your question is that there are no A6M5 models flying. Ours is an A6M3. To say that Steve is "overreacting" is silly. This man has more stick time in multiple different types than just about anyone else I know. He owns a Yak-3 and has flown it, the F6F, Spitfire, F8F, Mustang, Hurricane and a host of others. He doesn't exaggerate and he does know his stuff, he has to. They don't let mediocre pilots fly these planes.

He definitely said that the stiffness occurs at 250 MPH, like concrete was exactly how he put it, and I have no reason to doubt him, he makes flying look easy.

cheddar cheese · Feb 21, 2005

He owns a Yak-3 and has flown it, the F6F, Spitfire, F8F, Mustang, Hurricane and a host of others.

Damnit im jealous...

evangilder · Feb 21, 2005

Yeah, me too! He has had a truly remarkable life in aviation. He is also the civilian coordinator for the legacy flights, where they fly current Navy jets with the CAF planes. He flew a Hellcat in formation with a Hornet! To watch him fly is a real treat.

cheddar cheese · Feb 21, 2005

I think next year I will convince my folks to go to CA for our holiday...Spain gets boring, and theres no airshows

Soren · Feb 21, 2005

Evangilder this is a A6M3(Front) and a A6M5 (back) .

evangilder · Feb 21, 2005

Whoops, that is correct, the one in Chino is an A6M5. But that is not part of our organization. The A6M3 is ours. I still question the capability of manuevers above 300MPH TAS.

cheddar cheese · Feb 21, 2005

Thats a good picture Soren! 8)

Soren · Feb 21, 2005

There's also an A6M2 flying

Soren · Feb 21, 2005

Now Evangilder 'Steve' flew the A6M3 Mod.22 with a 12.10m wingspan. The reason i wanted you to ask him about the A6M5 is because it had clipped wings, and thus better roll-performance at high speed.

evangilder · Feb 21, 2005

That A6M2 pic is pretty old. That airplane has been sitting in our museum for over 5 years. It has not flown for a number of years and was until about three months ago, in 2 pieces. There are only 2 flying today, in Camarillo and Chino.

I will see about the A6M5, but Steve is not always around, he has a quite busy schedule.

Soren · Feb 21, 2005

That A6M2 pic is pretty old. That airplane has been sitting in our museum for over 5 years. It has not flown for a number of years and was until about three months ago, in 2 pieces. There are only 2 flying today, in Camarillo and Chino.

I see. You wouldnt happen to know whether its going to fly again or not ?

I will see about the A6M5, but Steve is not always around, he has a quite busy schedule.

Thanks Evan i appreciate it

evangilder · Feb 21, 2005

Will it fly again? Perhaps, but it won't be on our dime. It has been in suspended restoration since before we got our new hangars. They put it back to one piece, with some of the external aluminum missing for a potential buyer. The potential buyer is a mystery, but rumor has it that the person is Japanese, and it may even be the Japanese government, but I don't really know. The problem is that the Zero is STILL illegal to fly in Japan! Personally, I think they need to modify the law to be able to fly one of the original Zeroes in Japan. I don't think it poses much of a threat to anyone today.

I have a couple of shots of that one "Fugu" on my drive at home. I will post them later. That poor bird needs a new home where it wil get the care and restoration it needs to fly again.

Soren · Feb 21, 2005

The Japanees arent allowed to fly it ?! Hmm.. I guess they'd rather just forget the war down there ! I know that they felt alot of shame after the war, and maybe still do

Anyway im looking forward to hear from you about the A6M5 Evan

evangilder · Feb 21, 2005

It was written into their constitution about 60 years ago, so it still can't fly there. It is a legal technicality that I would think they could get around these days. I hope they do, we could use the money from the sale.

Soren · Feb 21, 2005

Well one can always hope

evangilder · Feb 21, 2005

Here are the shots of "Fugu" as she sits now, and as she was for many years before.

Anonymous · Feb 22, 2005

Soren said:
Yes but he said "stiff like Concrete" !

They are making it sound like it couldnt roll at all

Its not that i don't believe you Evangilder, not at all, but "Stiff like concrete" isnt that just overreacting a little ?

The Zero could roll at 340mph, but it would be slow (meaning a F6F Hellcat or any other could beat the Zero into the turn, and get a deflection-shot.)

Now Evangilder, if you could ask him about how the Zero A6M5 handles a loop at lets say 320mph and at below 10,000ft, then we could get that solved also.

No the Zero could not roll at speeds over 250 IAS. Technically, it could not roll to the right at all and could barely roll to the left. Even at 230 IAS roll performance to the right was extremely poor and to the left it was quite slow. The problem was the ailerons were quite large and the ratios of the cabling were low. This resulted in very snappy performance in the intended combat speed range of 180-220 mph but made the stick so stiff the pilot could not work it at higher speeds. Pilots even extended the stick with a piece of pipe to achieve the performance noted above, otherwise 200 mph would have been the limit. Elevator response was also limited at high speed, though not as strictly as aileron response.

Corsair pilots would sit on the left turn of a Zero as they overtook it. They knew the plane could not manuver to the right and it's only devensive manuver would be to roll into a hard split-S to the left. When being attacked from the six, Corsair pilots would bank and do a slight climbing turn to the right, then use the rudder to complete the very mild hi-yoyo move onto the six of the attacking zero. Once the weakenesses of the Zero were found by testing the captured units, it's day was done and they were easily defeated by pilots that enageded them properly.

The Zero was also known to have a low terminal dive speed. Anything over 320 IAS in a moderate dive was fatal, the steeper the dive the lower the terminal threshold. So the answer to your loop question is probably that it was not possible to survive such a manuver.

Newbie Kamakazi pilots assigned the Zero were told to fly relatively level to the target, and those that tried to dive steeply into the target invariably crashed into the sea in an uncontrolled dive.

=S=

Lunatic

Soren · Feb 22, 2005

No the Zero could not roll at speeds over 250 IAS.

Yes it could The A6M2 would have a hard time rolling fast at that speed, and the A6M5 at 275mph. (But they could roll )

Technically, it could not roll to the right at all and could barely roll to the left. Even at 230 IAS roll performance to the right was extremely poor and to the left it was quite slow. The problem was the ailerons were quite large and the ratios of the cabling were low. This resulted in very snappy performance in the intended combat speed range of 180-220 mph but made the stick so stiff the pilot could not work it at higher speeds.

The A6M2's stick was set to operate at a 250 IAS (You are quoting 'Claude' stats !)

Pilots even extended the stick with a piece of pipe to achieve the performance noted above, otherwise 200 mph would have been the limit. Elevator response was also limited at high speed, though not as strictly as aileron response.

Untrue Even a Modern day Zero pilot will tell you that

The Zero was also known to have a low terminal dive speed. Anything over 320 IAS in a moderate dive was fatal, the steeper the dive the lower the terminal threshold. So the answer to your loop question is probably that it was not possible to survive such a manuver.

Newbie Kamakazi pilots assigned the Zero were told to fly relatively level to the target, and those that tried to dive steeply into the target invariably crashed into the sea in an uncontrolled dive.

The A6M2's weak wings would hold to around 360-380mph in a dive. The A6M3's 410mph. The A6M5's 460mph. So again you are incorrect

According to the Japanees, the A6M7 Zero went into an uncontrolled dive at around 450mph

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