Corsair vs Zero

[Soren]

Additionally it is said:

Rate of roll at 230mph was 5.4 sec. for 360 degrees.

Still A6M2 stats !

 

[Anonymous]

Which are true speeds, probably below 8,000 feet (as going higher required a refit with O2 equipment).

"practically freeze up" is the critical part of the evaluation, don't you think?

=S=

Lunatic

He says fast rolling cannot be done at 250 KTS That is what he says

Meaning rolling could be done at 250 KTS, but it wouldnt be fast

Still keep in mind were talking about an 'A6M2' with a not properly working engine

Other accounts are that only a slow roll to the left was possible, and rolling to the right was almost impossible, at speeds above 230 IAS. Your source does not give a very precise statement, but "practically freeze up" means "practically cannot be moved" which implies extremely sluggish response, and this does not conflict with "fast rolling cannot be done".

And the engine has nothing to do with roll performance, except to make rolls to the right under higher power levels even more difficult.

Design Analysis of the Zeke 32 (Hamp) has lots of good info on the A6M3 design.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[Soren]

Other accounts are that only a slow roll to the left was possible, and rolling to the right was almost impossible, at speeds above 230 IAS.

What accounts ? Where ?

The only thing that is right in what your saying is that the rolling to the right at high speed would be slower than to the left !

The 'Claude's' controls were set to operate at 200-220mph, above that and they would become very stiff

There were numerous Mock-dogfights between the 'Zero' and 'Claude', where the Claude won almost every time ! This was because these were classic dogfights at speeds od 200-220mph.
However the Zero severely beat the Claude when the speeds progressed to 250-275mph, where the Zero's controls were set to operate, and where the Claude's would get stiff as ****.

Your source does not give a very precise statement, but "practically freeze up" means "practically cannot be moved" which implies extremely sluggish response, and this does not conflict with "fast rolling cannot be done".

Report on the A6M2:

Conclusions:

The Zero fighter, because of its low wing loading, has superior maneuverability to all our present service type aircraft.

It is necessary to maintain a speed of over three hundred (300) miles per hour indicated to successfully combat this airplane.

In developing tactics against the Zero, cognizance should be taken of two facts:

1. Slow rate of roll of the Zero at high speeds.

2. Inability of the Zero engine to continue operating under negative acceleration.

The engine performance of the Zero is superior to the present service type engine without turbo superchargers. This superiority is recognizable in the fact that the maximum manifold pressure can be maintained from sea level to sixteen thousand (16,000) feet.

Recommendations:

That the pilots entering the theater of action where the Zero can be expected be instructed in the following:

1. Never attempt to dog fight the Zero.

2. Never maneuver with the Zero at speeds below three-hundred (300) miles per hour indicated unless directly behind it.

3. Never follow a Zero in a climb at slow speeds. (Service type ships will stall out at the steep angle where the Zero has just reached its most maneuverable speed.) At this point is possible for the Zero to complete a loop putting it in a position for a rear quarter attack.

Clear enough ?

And the engine has nothing to do with roll performance, except to make rolls to the right under higher power levels even more difficult.

I never said it did ! But did you see the Performance chart i gave you ?! Those speeds were reached with a malfunctioning engine

Design Analysis of the Zeke 32 (Hamp) has lots of good info on the A6M3 design.

Lunatic I have known about that site for a long time, and it mainly gives an idea of how the 'Hamp' is build up piece by piece.

Also any goofball can make a website and write whatever on it, so websites don't have a whole lot of credability.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

unless you check the info against other sources, if several sources say the same thing you can be pretty sure it's reliable................

 

[KraziKanuK]

unless you check the info against other sources, if several sources say the same thing you can be pretty sure it's reliable................

Not neccessarily true.

For example: Many sites, and books, say the 109K-4 had MG151/20 cowl weapons. This originated with Green and has been 'copied and pasted' continuously ever since.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

i don't nesisarily have to check other websites, and there has to be a point when you accept something as fact or you'll forever be looking for sources..............

 

[Soren]

Sure but just don't use sources from the Internet as a reference

 

[evangilder]

You can use sources from the internet if you get a second source. Not everything on the web is inaccurate. Plus there are a number of sites that will list their references so that you can double check them. Never single source anything. Even some books have errors. I read a book about a captured B-17 that gave a very different story of how the aircraft was brought down than the official bomb-group association told.

 

[Soren]

If the Site quotes a book as reference, then it can most likely be used. But still it would be a good idea to get a hold of similar info from another source first, before you use it as a reference.

 

[evangilder]

Exactly, ALWAYS get a second source.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

which is baisically what i said!!!!!

 

[Soren]

Yeah well one should still be skeptic, since as KraziKanuk demonstrated it can be totally wrong sometimes, nomatter how many website's supports it !

 

[Anonymous]

What accounts ? Where ?

Mostly from interviews with USN, USMC, and Japanese fighter pilots. In particular, the surviving (at the time of filming) Black Sheep pilots.

If you read the entire San Diego report (attached), it points out that the Zero was incapable of doing a reversal at 300 mph. It is ludicrous to take the report at face value and believe the Zero is manuverable right up to 300 mph and then suddenly becomes totally non-manuverable at that speed. Clearly, manuverability starts to drop off well before 300 mph at which point it is totally gone. This is the reason for the 300 mph recommended minimum speed for all positions except "from behind", where the speed could be reduced. As long as the US plane maintained 300 IAS the Zero was helpless, turning or engaging in combat at speeds below 300 mph would mean that E-bleed would drop the plane into the Zero's manuver envelope and give the enemy a chance, which would be foolish. 300 mph gives a cushion against this.

Above 250 IAS, the Zero's manuverability was poor, and by 300 IAS, it could barely manuver at all.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[R Leonard]

Hey, that's my copy \/

 

[Soren]

Mostly from interviews with USN, USMC, and Japanese fighter pilots. In particular, the surviving (at the time of filming) Black Sheep pilots.

Wich ? They must be available somewhere !

If you read the entire San Diego report (attached), it points out that the Zero was incapable of doing a reversal at 300 mph. It is ludicrous to take the report at face value and believe the Zero is manuverable right up to 300 mph and then suddenly becomes totally non-manuverable at that speed. Clearly, manuverability starts to drop off well before 300 mph at which point it is totally gone. This is the reason for the 300 mph recommended minimum speed for all positions except "from behind", where the speed could be reduced. As long as the US plane maintained 300 IAS the Zero was helpless, turning or engaging in combat at speeds below 300 mph would mean that E-bleed would drop the plane into the Zero's manuver envelope and give the enemy a chance, which would be foolish. 300 mph gives a cushion against this.

Above 250 IAS, the Zero's manuverability was poor, and by 300 IAS, it could barely manuver at all.

=S=

Lunatic

Let me be abit more specific ! "At 300 IAS it could barely roll"

Also Lunatic be careful you don't 'overanalyze' every single word in the report

You should also bear in mind at wich altitudes the tests were carried out in

Btw i couldn't see the document. But it doesnt matter because I have a copy myself !

 

[KraziKanuK]

Let me be abit more specific ! "At 300 IAS it could barely roll"

With respect the a/c it had to fight against, for sure.

The NACA report 868 has the roll of the Zeke the best at 160mph IAS (56*/sec) and continually decreasing to 29*/sec at 390mph IAS.

Above 180mph IAS every a/c on the graph is has a better roll rate, and the rate increases the greater the speed, than the Zeke except for the Typhoon which surpasses the Zeke's roll rate at 230mph IAS.

 

[Soren]

Yes the roll rate of the Zeke was slow at high speeds, but it wasnt phenomenal at slow speeds either !

As a matter of fact im sure the Hellcat could roll faster than the Zeke at slow speeds !

The rate of roll wasnt the Zeke's strong side, its low wing-loading was
It was its low wingloading that allowed it to make those extreem banking maneuvers, and it was also what made it very good at Turn 'n' Burn dogfights

 

[KraziKanuK]

Yes the roll rate of the Zeke was slow at high speeds, but it wasnt phenomenal at slow speeds either !

As a matter of fact im sure the Hellcat could roll faster than the Zeke at slow speeds !

The rate of roll wasnt the Zeke's strong side, its low wing-loading was
It was its low wingloading that allowed it to make those extreem banking maneuvers, and it was also what made it very good at Turn 'n' Burn dogfights

How does the Zeke get into those extreme banking manuevers?

 

[Soren]

Yes the roll rate of the Zeke was slow at high speeds, but it wasnt phenomenal at slow speeds either !

As a matter of fact im sure the Hellcat could roll faster than the Zeke at slow speeds !

The rate of roll wasnt the Zeke's strong side, its low wing-loading was
It was its low wingloading that allowed it to make those extreem banking maneuvers, and it was also what made it very good at Turn 'n' Burn dogfights

How does the Zeke get into those extreme banking manuevers?

You see there lies the problem !

As a matter of fact there were many Zeke pilots who died trying make these banking maneuvers with Hellcat's on their tail.
As the Hellcat could roll faster it could make a deflection shot, wich when were talking six 50.cals vs Zero durability is saying something !

However if the Zeke is already turning, the Hellcat would be foolish to follow !

 

[Anonymous]

Yes the roll rate of the Zeke was slow at high speeds, but it wasnt phenomenal at slow speeds either !

As a matter of fact im sure the Hellcat could roll faster than the Zeke at slow speeds !

The rate of roll wasnt the Zeke's strong side, its low wing-loading was
It was its low wingloading that allowed it to make those extreem banking maneuvers, and it was also what made it very good at Turn 'n' Burn dogfights

How does the Zeke get into those extreme banking manuevers?

You see there lies the problem !

As a matter of fact there were many Zeke pilots who died trying make these banking maneuvers with Hellcat's on their tail.
As the Hellcat could roll faster it could make a deflection shot, wich when were talking six 50.cals vs Zero durability is saying something !

However if the Zeke is already turning, the Hellcat would be foolish to follow !

The ability to turn a tight circle is only significant if the enemy plays the low speed horizontal turnfight game - US pilots did not. Rate of roll is always critical and can make up for turn rate in many instances. By 230 IAS the Zero rate of roll was so bad that it was totally outclassed by every opponent, and this only got worse with additional speed.

I really don't understand your point here. You seem to be agreeing with me that the roll rate of the Zero was horrible at even moderate speeds.

???

Also, the low speed "turn-n-burn" fight was a fools fight. When engaged in such combat, you are a sitting duck for any other enemy plane that might come along. Come play Fighter Ace sometime and see - it happens all the time - you are turn fighting with an enemy on the deck, maybe even gaining the advantage, when one of his mates comes along at twice your speed and blasts the hell out of you.

=S=

Lunatic