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Two dates. The Day before 18.12.1940 Mid 10.1941.
Lets keep this civil or the thread will be locked and infractions given. Please everybody, some good info was being brought to the table.
You are suggesting to abstract for one side, but not the other. If we abstract for one side, the usual practice when assessing possibilities is to try and assess what would be the most likley reaction by the other side. The purpose of all this balance and counterbalance is to determine at what point one side has an advantage that the other side does not or cannot counter.
Of course its possible to enter into pure supposition and not factor in what the opponenht will do, or to corral the opponents responses within unrealistic parameter. this is precisely what the japanese did before Midway, and look at the prize they took hoe with them. Its far better to think of a plan, and then think what might go wrong with that plan, rather than think of a plan, and then try and ignore or downplay what an opponent might do as a reaction. This is what you pro-german guys are doing right at this minute.....thinking about the possiblities, and trying not to think about the problems.
One thing I will concede. whilst i will argue till the cows come home that the germans could never win outright....what becomes highly problematic is the ability of the allies to defeat her. I think dropping Russia out of the equation makes a negotiated peace a very likely outcome. A draw if you like....
Yes but what is your intention?
GB was fighting for life at 1940/41 and germany was totaly in the war against the UDSSR after the lost of BoB!
?You suggest that a german move to "total" war against GB would have major counter action!
From what forces? Royal Air Force, Royal Navy, GB troops? What can GB do at 1941 other then they have done at the Mediterranean
From what sources came troops, aircrafts and ships? GB was totaly involved at the Mediterranean war at 1941 from the given sources!
As you can read at any book germany wasn't! All moves were under circumstances of the war to the UDSSR!
At this given scenario there will first no plan for the war to the UDSSR and second all plans and ressources would under the circumstances to a total war to GB
What is that difficult, that if germany move all his strenghts to the Mediterranean, especially logistic and LW, that GB would be in real trouble!
Germany managed with low logistic, low LW forces and low ground troops to give GB a hard time for 2 years with perhaps 5% of the given logistical, economical and military strenghts and now you want tell me, that if germany moves 50-70% of this capacity to the Mediterranean, all would be the same as historical?
Please think about it!
O fcourse some things need a little more time then other, but an invasion of Malta is the same as the invasion of Crete, only easier, and to take Tobruk with 5 elite division, well supllied and the assistance of thousands of LW aircrafts?!
You should think about the issue that germany blow up there ground forces from 155 to 180 division between the france campaign and Barbarossa. Under the circumstances in this scenario they can imobilize 30 to 40 divisions.
Think about this!
You really should market those rose-tinted glasses you're wearing; they'd make you a fortune. Your technical knowledge is formidable, but you ruin it with ludicrous statements like this.So if I am, please show how the Luftwaffe wasn't on the verge of victory then?
The RAF was out of time by the end of the BoB. IF Goring would have continued the champain, The RAF would have been crushed.
In the second war, Britain applied the same principal. This was complicated by the many leaks in the British ship of war. germany controlled all of europe, she was trading with neutral states that could not be blockaded (ie USSR) and was more self sufficient than previously. So the process of blockade was slowed by these effects, but not stopped. britains number one weapon against the germans was the blockade....a thing called the neutrality act, that said, essentially "we will sink your ships if you trade with the Germans". And they did. I have just lookfinished looking at german shipping losses on the Atlantic seaboard, well almost, for 1941. So far have found about 200000 tons of shipping sunk by the brits, maybe a bit more. Germany was denied the free usage of the oceans, the access to foreign markets outside Europe, and this hurt her economy. Britain lost far far more shipping, but she could afford to do this, and eventually solved the U-Boat issue. The allied offensive against german shipping just got worse and worse.
There were of course other offensives taking place that whilst pin pricks really, were the foundation stones for later operations. Of course there were the Bomber raids, but also missions like Taranto, Spisbergen, the fighter sweeps over france (costly and only partially successful), the conquest of Abysinnia, and o'connors offensive are just examples of what was happening. so whilst survival was the main game, there were also steps toward offensive action, right from day 1 of the war
Plenty. Starting with being able to divert an additional 9% of her outputs that were originally intended for the dominion forces, but were instead diverted to Russia. something like 2000 tanks, about 2500 a/c, and similar amounts of every imaginable piece of military hardware was either diverted directly from Britain, or diverted from Lend Lease, that had been promised to britain, but passed to russia.
There were vast amounts of naval assets, trained and untrained manpower, aircraft, merchant shipping military hardware being diverted from the european war effort, to the containment of the japanese. all of this could have been used in the Midle east. Around an additional 700 aircraft were matinained in the Far East, around 400 aircraft were also diverted from britain to china, at least two fully trained and experienced division. with that additional equipment no going to Russia, enough equipment to train and deploy about 10 australian divisions (which had been raised and trained, but not equipped, including a full armoured div). There were about 35 Indian Divs in the same boat, all now sitting around waiting to fight someone.
Also, though this is specualtive (abstract), there is every possibility that an increased threat on the south, aimed at Suez and beyond, would have boosted domestic production in the Dominions. I dont think it unreasonable to assume that 1942 production levels for Aus, India and NZ would not have been pushed forward as a result of the escalation in the med. Then we have the vast resources of Canada, a more significant industrial nation than italy during the war, and of course Britains home production, which i 1941 generally outstripped that of germany in just about every category.
In terms of immediate naval assets, there is approximately 1m tons of shipping the allies could use, about 20 destroyers, carrier Implacable, battleships PoW and Repulse, 5 Heavy cruisers, 8 Light Cruisers,, and from memory 3 or 4 aa cruisers. These are quite vast resources. There is a fully trained Australian Division in Malaya, another fully trained Div enroute (the 18th), the equivalent of a trained div in Burma, a full brigade in Fiji, another 5 Bdes in NZ, 12 Divs in Australia, a brigade in Hong Kong, two Brigades in ceylon, 35 Divs in India, another 5 divs in Malaya, 2 divs in South Africa. Do i need to continue. It also needs to be pointed out that approximately half the material being diverted to the pacific TO by the Americans was originally intended as Lend lease, roughly speaking this amounted to about 500 aircraft, all of them brand new. Without a japanese threat this would likely go back to the dominions, with additional aircraft added by the americans
So relaistically from June to December 1941, under this sceanrio, you might see an additional 15 or 20 allied divisions in the delta, an additional 2500-3000 aircraft, pretty much a doubling of the Med Fleet.
Neither was Britain fully committed to the southern front. The majority of her army remained in England. The same for her air force and her navy. there were plenty of additional resources, bith combat and logistical, to pour into this TO if need be
And unless the brits want to lose, or are incredibly dumb, they are going to respond on a like for like basis, call on her allies to move to a full war futting as well (which they could do, but didnt. These allies did that anyway, in 1942)
but even just counting germans only to british troops, the comparison is weighted in favour of the germans. they put more into the theatre historically than the british ever did, until 1943
Ive spent over twenty years thinking about it, and participated in excercises similar to the obnes done at the RMC to test these theories. i am not just pulling this out of my rear end, it is based on observation of actual kriegspiel simulations
If you take Crete, immediately you can forget any assault of malta. And malta is nothng like Crete. Crete wqas defended by men armed with nothing better than rifles for the most part, but it cost the germans a bucket for both their airborne and their air transports. If you take Crete, you will not take malta in the same year. malta was defended by at first two full brigades, and then three, fully armed and fortified. Not as good as the australians at Tobruk, but good enough. Germans would have been cut to pieces IMO, exscept if they could have at least two full parachute divisions, about 700 transports, a workabloe amphibious plan and complete air supremacy.
The trouble with your 5 elite divs idea at Tobruk, is that it takes the best part of a year to get them there, and in any event some of them are needed to contain the brits at the frontier. The best you can hope for is about 3 divs, and not all of them can attack at once as the germans found out historically. The lines of attack are very constricted.....the place is a natural fortress, and was guarded by troops even better than your so-called "elite" troops (dont believe me, ask romel, see what he said about the Australians at Tobruk...he gave up trying to beat them until they left the place). If the brits want to hold tobruk, it will be impossible to do that if properly garrisoned and competently defended
Which gains them what. Raising a few security division, splitting your existing forces to make new weaker formations, raising garrison troops for the westwall does what to help you in a war that is more about logistics than rifles. The germans could not produce enough steel, enough trucks, enough tanks, enough ships, to undertake a war of this kind
The Axis suffered between 620000 and 930000 depending on the source.