Could the Allies defeat Germany only with air power?

[Jenisch]

It's really interesting to know what the Arabs would think about this. The Nazi megalomaniac trying to take their oil fields, the US and Britain helping them by fighting from a free world that allowed them to sell their oil. I doubt they would just gave their oil fields to the Germans.

What about the Arabs, in the worse, putting fire in their oil fields and destroying the infraestruture by an agreedment with US and Britain to receive a Marshall Plan of the Oil later? =D

 

[Jabberwocky]

Crossing is no problem. If the FAT morphine addicted MAN would have kept up aerial assults for a couple more weeks, Germany would have won the airwar over England.. History tells us that. Luckily for England he stopped when he did.

The level of self delusion and historical ignorance showed by this post is highly revealing.

 

[Ratsel]

The level of self delusion and historical ignorance showed by this post is highly revealing.

Yah yeah... please if your so kind as to prove that the RAF was on the verge of victory during the end of BoB.

 

[DonL]

It's really interesting to know what the Arabs would think about this. The Nazi megalomaniac trying to take their oil fields, the US and Britain helping them by fighting from a free world that allowed them to sell their oil. I doubt they would just gave their oil fields to the Germans.

Are you realy serious? At what time the US and Britain helping them by fighting from a free world that allowed them to sell their oil?
Sorry at 1941 there was no free world that allowed them to sell their oil.

At this time the Egypt were on the german side, you can proof that from many historical alliedbooks!
In general the most arabian tend to the german side at WWII!

 

[Jenisch]

Perhaps we could have seen a photo like this with the P-40, P-38, P-51 over Saudit Arabia? =D

I'm curious with the Arab question.

 

[Jabberwocky]

"Verge of victory during the end of BoB"

Did I make any such claim? No.

Historically, the RAF won the BoB by surviving and denying the Luftwaffe control of the air over the Channel, preventing any change of Sealion occurring.

You are the one claiming that a crossing of the English Channel presents "no problem" for the German armed forces - despite all the Wehrmacht and Kriegsmarine objections to the scheme. Halder likened the Sealion plan to sticking one's hand in a meat grinder. von Runstead's objections were similar.

The onus of proof lies with you, not me.

Please, enlighten us as to how a naval force outnumbered 7:1 in destroyers, 8:1 in small craft, 2:1 in submarines, 11:1 in cruisers and 5:1 in battleships is going to satisfactorily protect the landing force for the initial 36 hour crossing and then for a further 10 days to get all landing forces across. This is against a Royal Navy which has already proven itself more than willing to seek out and engage the Kriegsmarine at almost all occasions. See HMS Glowworm

How was the Wehrmacht to supply itself, given that during the two available windows for Sealion, poor weather would have stimied re-supply efforts for at least two days out of the ten needed to transport the fleet and the English had wired most ports for destruction.

How is the Luftwaffe going to win with "aerial assults for a couple more weeks"? The front-line fighter and pilot strength of the RAF compared to the Luftwaffe increased from early September onwards. If anything, continuing the BoB would be more damaging for the Luftwaffe than the RAF, given the performance of the airforces in the September/October period.

 

[Jenisch]

Even me, the creator, are not taking this topic seriously anymore. The fact is that the Germans take the oil fields, and Uncle Joe attacks Europe and makes the so precious aquired Arab oil useless. Then the Allies devided Europe, or even Stalin takes everything. End of story. ROFL

 

[Ratsel]

'The onus of proof lies with you, not me.'

You called me stupid in an educated type of way (see post #102). So if I am, please show how the Luftwaffe wasn't on the verge of victory then?

I am willing to learn, but not willing to be called names. So please post.

The RAF was out of time by the end of the BoB. IF Goring would have continued the champain, The RAF would have been crushed. Thats my onus.

 

[gjs238]

Even if Germany were to accomplish the best of what has been suggested - could it be sustained?
For that matter, if we stay with the historical invasion of Russia, and fantasize that the Germans were "successful" - did they realistically expect to militarily occupy the USSR and sustain that indefinitely?

 

[Jenisch]

No. They planned to exterminate the Slavs and set a colonial state.

 

[DonL]

"Verge of victory during the end of BoB"

Did I make any such claim? No.

Historically, the RAF won the BoB by surviving and denying the Luftwaffe control of the air over the Channel, preventing any change of Sealion occurring.

You are the one claiming that a crossing of the English Channel presents "no problem" for the German armed forces - despite all the Wehrmacht and Kriegsmarine objections to the scheme. Halder likened the Sealion plan to sticking one's hand in a meat grinder. von Runstead's objections were similar.

The onus of proof lies with you, not me.

Please, enlighten us as to how a naval force outnumbered 7:1 in destroyers, 8:1 in small craft, 2:1 in submarines, 11:1 in cruisers and 5:1 in battleships is going to satisfactorily protect the landing force for the initial 36 hour crossing and then for a further 10 days to get all landing forces across. This is against a Royal Navy which has already proven itself more than willing to seek out and engage the Kriegsmarine at almost all occasions. See HMS Glowworm

How was the Wehrmacht to supply itself, given that during the two available windows for Sealion, poor weather would have stimied re-supply efforts for at least two days out of the ten needed to transport the fleet and the English had wired most ports for destruction.

How is the Luftwaffe going to win with "aerial assults for a couple more weeks"? The front-line fighter and pilot strength of the RAF compared to the Luftwaffe increased from early September onwards. If anything, continuing the BoB would be more damaging for the Luftwaffe than the RAF, given the performance of the airforces in the September/October period.

I agree!!!!

We could discuss some things but in the end it is as you described!
We have discussed the BoB till no end but with this scenario there more things in the game!

The germans aren't that stupid and they will learn from their errors!

The He 177 will be much more faster a He 277 and the FW 187 will be in service at the end of 1942 with the DB 601F or DB 605!

To my opinion at every timeline there will be no invasion possible from germany to GB with the USA in the war.
I will be a defend war at the air from the LW with some attacks to GB!
The real attackers would be the submarines (XXI), and in this scenario they will be in service earlier and much much more protected from the LW.

Many of you underestimate the german technology when it goes to the GB and the USA war.
The war to USSR was primary all other was secondary with Mr.Speer ahead and a clear focus to GB and the USA, it will be a real real tough fight, and from my understanding the Manhatten Project is the real goal, all other weapons are more equal.

 

[gjs238]

Would Arabs eventually meet the same fate?

 

[Jenisch]

Stalin had defined the premise during his March 10, 1939, speech in Moscow:

Nonintervention represents the endeavor... to allow all the warmongers to sink deeply into the mire of warfare, to quietly urge them on. The result will be that they weaken and exhaust one another. Then... (we will) appear on the scene with fresh forces and step in, naturally "in the interest of peace," to dictate terms to the weakened belligerents.

On August 25, 1939, the Swiss periodical Revue de droit international published the text of a speech Stalin delivered on August 19 to a closed session of the Political Bureau in Moscow. He was quoted as follows:

It must be our objective that Germany wage war long enough to exhaust England and France so much that they cannot defeat Germany alone.... Should Germany win, it will itself be so weakened that it won't be able to wage war against us for 10 years.... It's paramount for us that this war continues as long as possible, until both sides are worn out.


Stalin's Secret War Plans: Why Hitler Invaded the Soviet Union. Richard Tedor.

This guy was really as bastard as Hitler. We, here in the West, have much luck that the two totalitarian monsters destroyed each other (the Soviets, at least from a point of non Western Europe invasion). But many people in Eastern Europe didn't had the same luck.

 

[DonL]

Even me, the creator, are not taking this topic seriously anymore. The fact is that the Germans take the oil fields, and Uncle Joe attacks Europe and makes the so precious aquired Arab oil useless. Then the Allies devided Europe, or even Stalin takes everything. End of story.

ROFL

With all respect and I don't want to be arrogant, but without the USA landlease of american trucks, the USSR could do anything to the european countries. Against the german or english or late USA mot. war they can do nothing without USA trucks! That's a fact from many military historican!

 

[parsifal]

As always you do under estimate the situation if this was the primary goal!

Good to see you are your usual coureous and congenial self DonL, This is going to a civil exchange I hope.

You are talking about 1940/41 and 5 Divisions!
If the LW is at italy with all her strengths and Rommel had 5 elite divisions then Bengasi, Tobruk and Malta are down at June 1941!

There were no agreements with the italians until the end of October 1940. until then, there is no possibility of any reinforcement into italy. It then took three months basically to develop the airfields and set up the supporting infrastructure to support 248 a/c of FKX. Even at that rate, German logistics were stretched. German and italian logistics in Africa were fully strched to support roughly 150 aircraft in the assaults on Tobruk.

Looking firstly at malta, there were only two specialist anti-shipping units in the LW of Korps size, at the beginning of 1941. by the end of 1941, after strenuous efforts and training there were 21/2, the half being schwarzes meer command for the Eastern Front. There were odds and sods around the occupied territories that might give some help. The rest of the LW was untrained for anti-shipping operations, and as was found in 1940, by the germans, only appropriately trained aircrews are of any use in anti-shipping operations. So, there is very little chance of full defeat of the RN, or indeed, any additional defeat beyond what they suffered historically. It is possible for general air force units to be used on anti-shipping ops, but they are not efficient, as the italians, the british and the germans found out at various times.

Obviously with time and training (about nine months additional training on average) additional formations of the LW could be retrained for anti ship operations, and airfields provided, but this takes you to the latter half of 1941, not the June deadline you are suggesting.

Malta, under any scenario is a difficult nut for the Axis to crack....possible but not easy. And as barnett points out in "Engage the enmy more closely", it is not the complete answer to Axis logistic difficulties. Hercules Mark I was originally planned no earlier than September 1941 from memory, the second plan would have seen airdrops in July 1942. there were many months of delay between the time of orders being issued, and the plan actually being carried out.

During the re-supply convoys in 42, more than 600 Axis aircraft were ranged against about 70 defenders, and could not crack the defences, mostly because they found it hard to concentrate, Attacking a carrier task force is not an easy option even at the best of times. With no far eastern deployments to worry about, the brits will have an additional five carriers for the med, and more modern equipment far ealier, particulalry Martlets......its not the walkover you think it would be. If the US does come into the fray there are another 5 carriers and another 500 a/c or so to contend with. I actually see this scenario as a bloodbath against the LW, not the other way round

Now, putting 5 divs into the theatre is absolutely no gurantee that Tobruk would be taken either. The most likley involvement of the germans would be via Greece and Yugoslavia, by ealry involvement, and no deployment against the Vichy, or alternatively cleaning the Lavant Vichy by forces in the East (after iraq). under those circumstances, the 5 divs which replace the 2 divs actually deployed, instead of being faced by one Aus Div in Tobruk, would be faced by two lus a full armoured Brigade, plus an additional Div in reserve. Since tyhe germans would need about 2 divs to face the frontier, they would have 3 divs, less well supplied than Rommel was, against 2.5 fresh and dug in troops in Tobruk. If they pour more assets into the TO, roughly 150 a/c equals the needs of a Div, so, say you wanted to pour in 450 aircraft into your NA scenario, you have reduced your frontline troop strengths to about 3 divs. Thats now 1.5 divs plus 450 a/c against 2.5 divs dig in. Still not good for the germans.

A meditterranean solution is a furphy

Please describe any scenario with sources that can stop Rommel and the LW to reach this goal!

see above


With Malta down there are only two bases for the Royal Navy, Gibratar and Alexandria! And no more supply for the GB troops through the Mediterranean sea with the LW at Italy, Malta and North Africa.
The whole time there would be a building of merchandise ships at the Mediterranean ports from Italy and germany!

See above. takes time to deploy, takes time to retrain. Doesnt overcome the port limitation of North africa. Malta is not a dead certainlty, and even if lost does not overcome Axis supply difficulties. The med was seldom used by the Allies until 1943. As for building ships, exactly what shipbuilding capacity do you think the italians possessed. Historically for the whole war they built about 300000 tons of seagoing shipping with an avergae build time per ship of around 20 months. If your building programn starts in December 1940 (highly unlikley) its still late 1942 before there is any effect on the Italian merchant marine. On top of that, your grand plan to use middle eastern oil requires additional shipping over and above that again. The axis will still be fighting on a much broader front, as well as trying to bring home the oil (oil is not general cargo so different ships are needed)....the oil dream is a fantasy for the axis....it wont work, as Hitler well knew...thats why he never went for it. Additionally, what was found when the germans went for the Caucasian oil is that the wells were completely wrecked, and would have required at least two years to repair. Brits did that in Burma, why not in the Mid east and Arabia????

With Tobruk there would be a good harbour for the Wehrmacht to force there troops to the suez canal.
Please describe with what troops and supply Archilenk will stopp Rommel with 5 elite divisions the described LW at Italy and North Africa and Malta and Toobruk at german hands to take Alexandria and the Suez Canal at autum 1941?

When they did finally take tobruk in June 42, tobrulk was found to be totally useless as a port. It has about 1/5 5he cargo handling capacity of tripoli. The Germans never even attempted to use it, it was so poor as a port, and so comphrehensively wrecked. Taking suez and Alex are both highly unlikely and even if captured, again will be so completely wrecked it would take years to recover

After that it is only a matter of time when german troops are at Saudi Arabian!
And don't forget there is no fuel at the war in the east, all fuel from Romania could get to the Mediterranean sea for the german troops, LW and the Italian Navy!

Different kind of fuel for ships,and it would remain in short supply no matter there was no war in the east

Lol, and what they want to do against german stukas, He 111 torpedo bombers and later Fritz X'?
The way from Saudi Arabian to the suez canal is realy short and the LW will be present!



To be very very specific, it is much much much more possible then to invade the UDSSR and get to Baku and the OIL through the Kaukasus

!

Keep dreaming friend, keep dreaming

 

[Jabberwocky]

'The onus of proof lies with you, not me.'

You called me stupid in an educated type of way (see post #102). So if I am, please show how the Luftwaffe wasn't on the verge of victory then?

I am willing to learn, but not willing to be called names. So please post.

The RAF was out of time by the end of the BoB. IF Goring would have continued the champain, The RAF would have been crushed. Thats my onus.

You're asking me to prove a negative.

RAF fighter and pilot strength INCREASED through the BoB period, except for a two week period between 24-August and 06-September, when aircraft and pilot attrition was heavier than replacement.

RAF fighters (serviceable and on strength), squadrons and pilot strength as of the end of:
July: 675 fighters, 52 squadrons, 1259 pilots
August: 700 fighters, 56 squadrons, 1458 pilots
September: 708 fighters, 58 squadrons, 1581 pilots
October: 687 fighters, 58 squadrons, 1711 pilots

Add to this that at no point did Fighter Command's reserve aircraft numbers get below 200 single seat fighters

In comparison, Luftwaffe fighter strength decreased through the battle, as did pilot strength:
Bf 109 pilots fit for duty as of 1st August - 869
1st September - 735

Fighter Command pilot strength increases by a third, Luftwaffe fighter pilot strength decreases by 15%.

The only time that the RAF looked like losing the Battle was the aforementioned two week period in Aug/September. Even at the worst weekly rate of attrition, assuming that production and pilot training rates stayed the same (which they didn't), it would have taken more than four months of these kinds of losses to reduce Fighter Command to half strength of around 350 fighters.

When, exactly, was the Luftwaffe on the "verge of victory" during the Battle of Britain?

 

[DonL]

There were no agreements with the italians until the end of October 1940. until then, there is no possibility of any reinforcement into italy. It then took three months basically to develop the airfields and set up the supporting infrastructure to support 248 a/c of FKX. Even at that rate, German logistics were stretched. German and italian logistics in Africa were fully strched to support roughly 150 aircraft in the assaults on Tobruk.

Looking firstly at malta, there were only two specialist anti-shipping units in the LW of Korps size, at the beginning of 1941. by the end of 1941, after strenuous efforts and training there were 21/2, the half being schwarzes meer command for the Eastern Front. There were odds and sods around the occupied territories that might give some help. The rest of the LW was untrained for anti-shipping operations, and as was found in 1940, by the germans, only appropriately trained aircrews are of any use in anti-shipping operations. So, there is very little chance of full defeat of the RN, or indeed, any additional defeat beyond what they suffered historically. It is possible for general air force units to be used on anti-shipping ops, but they are not efficient, as the italians, the british and the germans found out at various times.

Obviously with time and training (about nine months additional training on average) additional formations of the LW could be retrained for anti ship operations, and airfields provided, but this takes you to the latter half of 1941, not the June deadline you are suggesting.

Malta, under any scenario is a difficult nut for the Axis to crack....possible but not easy. And as barnett points out in "Engage the enmy more closely", it is not the complete answer to Axis logistic difficulties. Hercules Mark I was originally planned no earlier than September 1941 from memory, the second plan would have seen airdrops in July 1942. there were many months of delay between the time of orders being issued, and the plan actually being carried out.

What do you want to tell us?
Germany forced their troops to Greece, Crete was invaded and we have no plan to go to the UDSSR!
All your contradiction are based on a war to the UDSSR!
You should abstract the situation in this given scenario and the power of the LW, german navy and the Wehrmacht to to eliminate dangerous conditions! Malta was a dangerous condition and as you can poove crete was eliminated!
Malta was a easy target at the first half of 1941 with the historical strenghts abstract to no war in the east!

Now, putting 5 divs into the theatre is absolutely no gurantee that Tobruk would be taken either. The most likley involvement of the germans would be via Greece and Yugoslavia, by ealry involvement, and no deployment against the Vichy, or alternatively cleaning the Lavant Vichy by forces in the East (after iraq). under those circumstances, the 5 divs which replace the 2 divs actually deployed, instead of being faced by one Aus Div in Tobruk, would be faced by two lus a full armoured Brigade, plus an additional Div in reserve. Since tyhe germans would need about 2 divs to face the frontier, they would have 3 divs, less well supplied than Rommel was, against 2.5 fresh and dug in troops in Tobruk. If they pour more assets into the TO, roughly 150 a/c equals the needs of a Div, so, say you wanted to pour in 450 aircraft into your NA scenario, you have reduced your frontline troop strengths to about 3 divs. Thats now 1.5 divs plus 450 a/c against 2.5 divs dig in. Still not good for the germans.

Are you smokinh pot? We are talking about 5 divisions at May/June 1941!
Please tell me from the given historical sources that Tobrk can withstand that army, you are dreaming sir, nothing else!

Keep dreaming friend, keep dreaming

As I said, you are in no condition to abstract! If you wan't to tell me that the attack about UDSSR via Rostov to Baku, was easier then to invade, North Africa, Malta and the Suez Canal at 1941 you are totaly out of the discussion, cause you have no single clue to the reality!

 

[Ratsel]

When, exactly, was the Luftwaffe on the "verge of victory" during the Battle of Britain?

Two dates. The Day before 18.12.1940 Mid 10.1941.

 

[davparlr]

Read the Bari one if you havn't. That would be akin to a US carrier fleet in the Med with NO russians to worry about.

I did read it. The Allies were asleep at the wheel. Claiming this as the capability example of the Germans is like claiming that because of Pearl Harbor the US Navy better not take on the Japanese at sea.

 

[Njaco]

Lets keep this civil or the thread will be locked and infractions given. Please everybody, some good info was being brought to the table.