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If Britain faced a shortage of Merlins it could theoretically have powered the Lancaster, Wellington, Halifax & Beaufighter with the Allison. It was a while before the two speed superchargers were used on the Merlins I believe.
The turbo-charged Allison probably could have been fitted to these British bombers. A Turbo charged Allison on a Lancaster might give it quite a good altitude performance, perhaps as good as the Liberator.
Unfortunately the USN never used the Allison and aircraft (only air ships), had it have chosen too it might have provided the funds and impetus to develop a mechanical superchargers for the Allison.
In 1939/40 the Allison used in the P-40 was the highest altitude Allison they could build. Itis a myth to claim that a two speed supercharger drive would have improved anything except take-off power.
SNIP
In 1939/40 the Allison used in the P-40 was the highest altitude Allison they could build. Itis a myth to claim that a two speed supercharger drive would have improved anything except take-off power.
US "Policy" in 1939/early 40 was to get planes that would actually work, Which the turbo equipped prototypes often didn't. It also took P & W a while to fully sort out the 2 stage supercharger used in the Wildcat. Early planes suffered from breakdowns in airflow and compressor stall which was manifested in rumblings in the supercharger ducts.
Having planes with a low service ceiling beat having no planes at all.
A two speed single stage supercharger on the V-1710 would have done much more than increase take-off power. It would have provided 100hp more power all the way to 9200ft if the Merlin 27 (two speed) used in the Hurricane IV versus the Merlin 46 (single speed) Used in the Spitfire Vc. The lower first stage speed is more efficient leading to loss in parasitic shaft power and less preheating of the mixture and therefore increased boost. Speeding up the second gear may not yield much but it may have been compromised to yield reasonable low altitude performance.
A two speed single stage supercharger on the V-1710 would have done much more than increase take-off power. It would have provided 100hp more power all the way to 9200ft if the Merlin 27 (two speed) used in the Hurricane IV versus the Merlin 46 (single speed) Used in the Spitfire Vc. The lower first stage speed is more efficient leading to loss in parasitic shaft power and less preheating of the mixture and therefore increased boost. Speeding up the second gear may not yield much but it may have been compromised to yield reasonable low altitude performance. What two speeds would allow is the introduction of a larger impellor, no more than 10% greater diameter) that was more efficient a high altitude. I wouldn't be much of a gain but it would be something.
And who knows where this might have lead. Junkers improved the Jumo 211 not only with a two speed supercharger but intercooling which gave over 1500hp at high altitude on 87 octane.
The problem with turbosuperchargers in the US was that they were so bulky and tightly packe a reliable installation couldn't be made on single engined aircraft. There are only a few solutions
1 Integrate them only in twins using the nacelle space
2 Make a special airframe eg the P47
3 Integral turbo charger where the manufacturer builds the turbo, intercooler into a unitary body. This was the route the Germans went after having learned the lesson of the Fw 190 Kangaroo but the effort was abandoned as not worth while though they made integral turbos for the BMW801 (retaining two speed supercharger on top of the turbo)
Great post, indeed.
There was no major hurdle to install the two stage V-1710 (the 'normal' drive equivalent of the E-11 installed in the P-63A) in the P-51 airframe and send it in the ETO in 1944. The altitude performance would not be on par with the Merlin Mustang, esp. vs. the early models with the high altitude V-1650-3, but it should be enough for a decent performance advantage vs. the LW opposition.
Another approach could've been the single engined fighter with turbo V-1710, something along the lines of the XP-60A (3 view). The plane based around that power-plant was feasible as early as P-38.
...I have never seen it it written out but there may have been a very good reason that US turbos were mounted a number of feet away from the engine and usually with a number of feet of the exhaust duct exposed to the open air before it reached the turbine. Only the P-47 enclosed the turbine and it was quite a number of feet from the engine.
Trying to closely package the turbine to the engine just because you had room(?) might not have been a good idea?
Again I can't prove it but please remember there was quite a bit of work going with different turbos and uprated materials and rpm limits as the war went on.
Saying they should have done XXX in 1941 because they could do it in 1944/45 may not be correct.
When the US sent out the actual requirement that resulted in the Allison V-1710, it specified a single-stage supercharged engine and, if a higher altitude capability was desired, the aircraft could use the newly USAAC-developed turbo-supercharger, or turbocharger as we call it today.
The USAAC overestimated the state of development of its own turbocharger. General Electric was the sole source of American turbochargers during this period and for most of the US involvement in WWII.
The Allison Engine Company built engines to order, and the government ordered what they wanted.
Improvements in manufacturing brought the cost down from $25,000 to $8,000 and allowed the installed lifetime to be increased from an initial 300 hours to as much as 1,000 hours for the less-stressed powerplants. Weight increases were minimal with the result that all models were able to produce more than 1 pound per horsepower at takeoff rating.
Comparisons with the Merlin are inevitable. What CAN be said is the Allison made more power with less boost, had a longer time between overhauls, and did so with a parts count that was nearly half that of the Merlin (around 7,000 Allison parts versus 11,500+ Merlin parts).
The early V-1710's were about 1,000 HP and the late P-38L was 1,600 Hp, while the final V-1710-143/145 was rated at 2,300 HP maximum.
here was a high degree of commonality of parts throughout the series and individual parts were produced to high degree of standardization and reliability.
The original Bell P-39 prototype had a turbosupercharger that was specified by Ben Kelsey and Gordon Saville. Numerous changes were made while Kelsey was busy with P-38 work, and the turbocharger was deleted, making the P-39 a low-altitude fighter that was not suited to Europe's higher altitude requirements. The P-39 was rejected by the British but was used by the U.S.A. in the Mediterranean and Pacific Theaters, and particularly by the Soviet Union in large numbers. In the P-39, Soviet fighter pilots scored the highest number of individual kills made in ANY US or British fighter type, primarily because the Soviet war was a tactical, short-range, low-altitude war.
The Allison V-1710 initially had some issues in Europe. Some of the issues were: 1) Poor intake design (Allison), 2) poor regulation of the turbocharger temperature (GE), different fuel formulation from that used for development (not sure it was anyone's fault). The P-38 also had a very poor cockpit heater, which was a major problem in Europe's higher-altitude environment. Last, one of the biggest issues was poor or almost complete lack of pilot training on good flying practices when entering combat areas. The intake design, fuel issues, cockpit heater, and pilot training were "fixed" within a year, but the temperature regulation of the turbochargers was never really fixed by General Electric.
And Merlins were hand crafted by fitters using files and feeler gauges and drilling holes in-situ?
To be fair that is not what Greg said.The cost fell with the increase in production. Not really related to any engineering improvements.
Not much argument there. The Performance of the XP-39 was not only well below what what was promised before flight, it was well below what was claimed after flight if in fact such flights at anywhere near the claimed performance ever took place. XP-39 may have been one of the great con jobs of aircraft marketing at the beginning of the war.The XP-39 with turbocharger was a turd. It never had the performance promised, and likely not even the performance of the modified XP-39 without turbo.
I am not sure who supplied the turbo charger regulator. It may have been a 3rd party. neither GE or Allison or even the airframe maker. The early one sensed the pressure in the exhaust system and sought to maintain a preset value which in turn was thought to control the inlet pressure (kind of an obvious disconnect here) but it tended to freeze or accumulate ice in the sensor tube and so could stick at any position. Too closed could lead to overspeeding while too open meant the engine never developed rated power at altitude. Not as catastrophic but hardly ideal. This plagued a number of turbo installations, not just the Allison ones. A later regulator sensed the pressure in the intake duct and controlled the waste gate to maintain that preset value.The problem wasn't really the regulation of turbocharger temperature, but rather regulation of the turbocharger speed, which was controlled using the wastegate
6) You say the XP-39 was a turd. Many in here have said that. But I have yet to see ONE shred of proof from a flight test that backs it up. What I AM sure of is that if the turbocharger had been retained, the altitude performance of the P-39 would have materially improved. I can't say if it would ever have been a good system since it wasn't developed further than the one installation. Nobody can reliably say how fast it went since the data apparently does not exist or has yet to be uncovered and published.
3) The US government owned the Allison type certificate. It was also the ONLY V-12 that passed the 150-hour type test during the war. Rolls Royce and others were free to develop their engines as THEY were the owners of the design. The Merlin was privately developed during the Schneider cup races. You know the first Merlin (PV-12) used technology directly from the Rolls Royce Type R engine. The Griffon of 1933 even used the same bore and stroke as the Type R. It was not directly -related to the later Griffons.
4) I never mentioned the Merlin when I said the latest Allison that was flying regularly could make 2,300 hp. You did. Why quote me? Make your own post about the Merlin. It was and IS a good engine and I didn't say different in my post.