Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
Don't:
Upon further research: "It was found that Allison-powered F-82 models (C models) demonstrated a lower top speed and poorer high-altitude performance than earlier Merlin-power versions." The C model used Allison V-1710-100 engines. Only 20 production F-82B models were made using the British designed Merlin engine.
Per Dan Whitney in "Vee's for Victory"
XP-82 was to be powered with the Packard Merlin V-1650-23/25
XP-82A would have the Allison F32R/L V-1710-119/121 (Aircraft cancelled)
P-82B Allison offered the F33 R/L engine but the planes were produced with Merlin engines.
P-82C and P-82D were P-82B aircraft modified to add radar.
P-82E and P-82G originally to be Allison F36R/L V-1710-143/145 later changed to the Allison G6R/L also designated V-1710-143/145.
The F32 engine was two stage super charged with charged cooled after the engine stage (2 nd) supercharger, and Bendix SD-400 speed density (single point) injection. War emergency Rating was 2100 HP up to 4000 feet (grade 150 fuel required), 1720 HP at 20700 feet, and 1200 HP at 30000 feet. The G6 engines was however without the aftercooler but adding ADI (water) injection. The G6 was rated 2250 HP with water injection, and similar ratings at altitude as the F32..
I don't think that G6 have had similar ratings at altitude as the intercooled F32. We're probably looking at under 1000 HP at 30000 ft for the G6 - the similar V-1710-121 (F28) was making 930 HP at 3200 rpm at 30000 ft, and a bit less than 1700 HP at 17000 ft.
Yes. The Auxiliary supercharger has very few parts. It is basically a casting with an impeller and some bearings and bolts and a driveshaft to turn it ... and not very many parts altogether.
The F28 had the 9-1/2" engine stage impeller turned by 8.1:1 step up gears and the 7.23:1 gears in the auxiliary stage. The G6 had a 10-1/4" engine stage impeller turned by 7.48:1 gears with 8.03:1 auxiliary stage gears. For the G6 engine Whitney states (page 280): "The Military rating was set at 1250 HP and 30000 feet, a deviation from the intended 32500 feet. Allison then went on to achieve the intended altitude rating." Maybe the actual performance was lower, but that is what Whiney states based on a source letter from Allison to Air Materiel Command.
Looking at the P-38's high altitude performance, being properly turbo- (and presumably super-) charged proves the Allison could do what the Merlin could, and it probably had a lot more room to explore and exploit its potential. The Army told Allison to either stop or not start 2nd stage supercharger development as this was to be handled exclusively by the GE turbocharger, which didn't work out for the P-39 because of packaging issues - there just wasn't enough room for the ductwor, I suppose, due to the engine placement. I'm trying to research if the A-36 and P-40 were ever intended to be turbocharged, or were they meant to be low-altitude craft exclusively,and be fine w the 1st stage impeller.Good question.
Specifically, did the intrinsic design of the V-1710 preclude development of it's supercharger in the ways that the Merlin supercharger developed?
Multi-speed, multi-stage, water cooling, etc.
In the turbocharged systems the turbo compensated for altitude, and that's all it did. And the integral supercharger was there to boost the intake charge above atmospheric (sea level) pressure. Which they did.
In engines without turbocharger the supercharger was to do both. It did this by being spun faster (different gearing). Unfortunately this meant that the engine couldn't take the boost the supercharger was capable of delivering at lower altitudes, so the intake had to be throttled to prevent overboosting.
The first statement doesn't stand up to close scrutiny, no Allison ever matched the performance of a 100 series Merlin. There is no evidence that the Army stopped Allison from working on 2 stage supercharging. Allison were building test models in 1942. The problem is that Allison didn't think about actually fittingly it into existing aircraft. This is in stark constrast to Rolls Royce who designed a very compact 2 stage arrangement for the Merlin and extensively redesigned the Griffon to allow it to fit into Merlin engined aircraft.Looking at the P-38's high altitude performance, being properly turbo- (and presumably super-) charged proves the Allison could do what the Merlin could, and it probably had a lot more room to explore and exploit its potential. The Army told Allison to either stop or not start 2nd stage supercharger development as this was to be handled exclusively by the GE turbocharger, which didn't work out for the P-39 because of packaging issues - there just wasn't enough room for the ductwor, I suppose, due to the engine placement. I'm trying to research if the A-36 and P-40 were ever intended to be turbocharged, or were they meant to be low-altitude craft exclusively,and be fine w the 1st stage impeller.
Actually, NACA was working on the V-1710 in 1942.Too bad that NACA found it fit to test and suggest improvements for the V-1710 in 1946.
Actually, NACA was working on the V-1710 in 1942.
From the NASA website:
SP-4306 Engines and Innovation: Lewis Laboratory and American Propulsion Technology
Good points on 1430.In 1941 NAA rejected it because of cooling issues primarily, then like the auxilary 2S it was also too long.Hmmm, not a lot mention about the Continental 1430 which was actually the armies fair haired boy in disguise.
They didn't give up on it until 1944 while trying to beat the Allison engine.
and I have no idea of where this came from in Wiki, but the entry on the XI-1430 sounds like they were written by USAAC press release hacks.
Continental built the first I-1430 engine in 1938 and successfully tested it in 1939.[1] At the time it was an extremely competitive design, offering at least 1,300 hp (970 kW) from a 23-liter displacement; the contemporary Rolls-Royce Merlin offered about 1,000 hp (700 kW) from 27 L displacement,
and
In 1944 it was also tested in the McDonnell XP-67.[1]
Interest in the design had largely disappeared by then; piston engines with the same power or greater ratings were widely available, the Merlin for example had improved tremendously and was offering at least 1,500 hp (1,120 kW), and the military and aircraft builders were already starting to focus on jet engines.
the 1430 managed to set fire to only two planes it was ever installed in. They built 23 of them and built it in or planed to build 13 different versions?
Agreed. The point that I was making is that NACA was working on the V-1710 through most of the war.Cool that they did.
Unfortunately, the article contains too much of questionable statements, some of them misleading:
- Adding a turbo supercharger to the engine of the B-17 "Flying Fortress," once thought obsolete, had made it a high-speed, high-altitude airplane. "This caused considerable excitement at the time because there wasn't a pursuit ship in the air force that could keep up with it."
Once thought obsolete??? Each B-17 have had 4 engines, thus will need 4 turboes per ship. It was Boeing and GE that were instrumental in a B-17 having turbocharged engines, not the PP Division.
-The Power Plants Division became an advocate of "exhaust stacks" added to the tailpipes of aircraft. Once they were adopted by the aircraft manufacturers, they led to dramatic increases in performance fighter planes, including the North American P-51 and the British Spitfire.1"
Leading to a reader to conclude that Spitire received a dramatic performance increase due to the advice on exhaust stacks received by PPD.
- Three engines were sent to the laboratory. Schey's division investigated the supercharger to give it better performance. Rothrock's division explored its limitations in terms of knock; Pinkel's division took on the problem of cooling. Moore's Engine Components Division improved the distribution of fuel and air in the carburetor.
Fine, although one would love to see the test reports from 1943.
- The Allison engine, however, never met the expectations of the Army Air Forces.
It certailny met them in 1940, when it enabled a 30+ mph jump in pursuit speed over the then-current pursuits. Also in the P-38. For engines that never met the AAF expectations, we can take a look at a few of the hy-per engines sucking the resources the V-1710 could've used.
- The Cleveland Laboratory's work on the Allison engine increased its horsepower through the use of water injection and supercharging. However, from Ben Pinkel's point of view, this work was a "tremendous waste of effort" because of the basic flaws in the engine's design.
Not listing the supposed basic flaws is a red flag.
- Only after the Army substituted the British Merlin engine, in the P-51 Mustang did the United States finally have a fighter for high-altitude flight."
Seems like the P-47 never existed.
tl;dr: When an institution writes their own history, it will be not the 1st nor the last time they migh twist the facts in order for themselves to look good.