Thumpalumpacus
Major
What is this heresy?!
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The first models of the P-39 featured an armor plated gearbox behind the propeller. Combat experience showed there was not a single instance of the gearbox being hit and thus the gearbox armor plate was deleted from later model P-39's and is not shown in the P-63 flight manual as being part of the armor protection for the pilot.
The Battle of Britain was almost over by the time the contract was signed with Packard in September 1940.As for why the Merlin was built by Packard, the book Vees for Victory says:
Before ww2 broke out, the Advisory Commission of the Council for National Defense and the British Purchasing Division had determined that the demand for 1000 hp liquid cooled engines could not be met by Allison alone. The British needed 6000 Merlin engines for the forthcoming Battle of Britain and were seeking help from the US. Initially Ford was going to build the Merlin but then changed their mind, kept the RR drawings, and produced a tank engine based on them, just as RR produced a tank engine based on Merlin technology. The USAAC agreed that the US would build Merlins but that 3000 of them would be made available for US use.
If they couldn't bury the radiator aft of cockpit a la XP-51B, it would have a nose job like the Typhoon. The XP-60 didn't have the Merlin 61 did it?Claims of super P-40s with Merlin 61s tend to overlook the increase of about 200lbs for the 2 stage engines, the need for a bigger propeller, and the need for about 360lbs worth of larger radiators, intercoolers and cooling fluid.
Not saying it could not be done, I am saying you were going to need months of testing and some major changes in the airframe and tooling to do it.
It is an important historical detail that things happened in the reverse order. Arnold championed the long range fighter escort before the Schweinfurt raids took place, the P-51B project was well down the line and not a reaction to losses suffered over Germany. The wheels of a big military project turn very slow indeed.Considering what happened over Germany in '43 and how much Hap Arnold championed both the Mustang and long range fighters in general, it seems that Echols was fortunate not to get at least reprimanded, if not flat out court martialed, for insubordination or obstruction of AAF business. Granted, that's from one side of the story of how/why he stonewalled USAAF purchases of the Mustang.
I'm pretty sure that Echols was shuttled off as Military Governor of Germany post VE Day, rather than a high placed AAF-Hq staff job, based on demonstrating that he wasn't cut out for increased responsibilities for either high staff or operations command.Considering what happened over Germany in '43 and how much Hap Arnold championed both the Mustang and long range fighters in general, it seems that Echols was fortunate not to get at least reprimanded, if not flat out court martialed, for insubordination or obstruction of AAF business. Granted, that's from one side of the story of how/why he stonewalled USAAF purchases of the Mustang.
In fairness to Spaatz, Eaker and Arnold - the Allison powered Mustang was never an 'obvious soluton for LR escort' until the promise of the Merlin mating yielded production quantities... and even when Eaker begged for P-51s and P-38s in June 1943, there would not be Group level operations until six months later.I already knew that. Still no excuse for Echol's dragging his feet on the whole issue and kissing up to Curtiss-Wright and GM. Especially since Arnold had been asking for a long range escort fighter since at least 1940, based on observations from the Spanish Civil War.
My post was mainly pointed at any Youtube experts who happened to pass by. In the world of Youtube the UK in 1943 was a land full of commissioned airfields, trained pilots, massive numbers of P-47s and P-38s just waiting for a genius to invent a long range tank and the P-51BI already knew that. Still no excuse for Echol's dragging his feet on the whole issue and kissing up to Curtiss-Wright and GM. Especially since Arnold had been asking for a long range escort fighter since at least 1940, based on observations from the Spanish Civil War.
Trouble is they (British and Germans both) didn't know it at the time. Let alone what the US Military (war planners) knew.The Battle of Britain was almost over by the time the contract was signed with Packard in September 1940.
In 1940 the British had ordered the Typhoon and Tornado and the first jets were ordered. Unlike us today they had no idea what the Germans would do next or were capable of. The Fw 190 and Me 262 are evidence that they were right to pursue all options.Trouble is they (British and Germans both) didn't know it at the time. Let alone what the US Military (war planners) knew.
Or depends on who you are listing to/reading.
The Battle of Britain, 10 July – 31 October 1940
Phase 1: 10 July – 12 August 1940 Attacks on Channel Shipping
Phase 2: 13 – 18 August 1940 Attacks on Airfields and Radar Stations
Phase 3: 19 August – 6 September 1940
Phase 4: 7 September 1940 – 31 October 1940
Some authors use 5 or more phases, this list is from Battle of Britain | Bentley Priory Museum
The Night Blitz overlapped starting on Sept 6/7 and ending on May 21st 1941.
There was no assurance that the Luftwaffe would not return to daylight bombing and the British needed engines for nigh fighters and bombers in addition to day fighters.
And as I have said, the Ability of Allison to deliver suitable engines (ones that would pass test) was in serious doubt in Sept 1940.
Yes, but to get that far they had to start planning at least a year earlier.The Battle of Britain was almost over by the time the contract was signed with Packard in September 1940.
Not sure where you got the last sentence.Trouble is they (British and Germans both) didn't know it at the time. Let alone what the US Military (war planners) knew.
Or depends on who you are listing to/reading.
The Battle of Britain, 10 July – 31 October 1940
Phase 1: 10 July – 12 August 1940 Attacks on Channel Shipping
Phase 2: 13 – 18 August 1940 Attacks on Airfields and Radar Stations
Phase 3: 19 August – 6 September 1940
Phase 4: 7 September 1940 – 31 October 1940
Some authors use 5 or more phases, this list is from Battle of Britain | Bentley Priory Museum
The Night Blitz overlapped starting on Sept 6/7 and ending on May 21st 1941.
There was no assurance that the Luftwaffe would not return to daylight bombing and the British needed engines for nigh fighters and bombers in addition to day fighters.
And as I have said, the Ability of Allison to deliver suitable engines (ones that would pass test) was in serious doubt in Sept 1940.
By the time the Mustang Mk 1 alias XP-51 flew everybody in the world knew that a single engined fighter with less than, say, 2200 cu in, was not going to cut it. All the future plans for every major power called for Big Cubes. The BF-109E went from 2069 cu in to the BF-109G's 2169 cu in, the new FW-190 had 2562 cu in., Japan went to the copy of the 109E's engine for the Ki61 and Italy stuck it in their Macchi and Reganni fighters to replace the smaller radials. The US went to two V-1710's in the P-38 and planned for fighters with the V-3420. The P-47 and F4U used the R-2800 and the F6F went from the R-2600 to the R-2800. There was no reason to pay attention to the Mustang MkI. But Sir Hooker figured out a way to make The Smallest Front Line Engine Of the War, with LESS than 1700 cu in (smaller than the A6M3 had installed) perform like a much larger engine. And NAA figured out how to build an airplane that gave much better performance than the P-39, P-40, and Spit V, even when limited to the V-1710.I also suspect that when it was obvious how valuable the Mustang became as key to the dream of a Strategic Air Force, that some superior officers were wondering why it took so long to be fielded in combat ops
You misspelled correct and thoughts.Somebody orrect me if I am wrong.….
….Thouhts, evidence either way?
It has a lot to do with the fact that it took 5 engines to get through the 150 hour test for the V-1710-33 engine during the summer of 1940.Not sure where you got the last sentence.
I'm a one finger typist using two hands with a keyboard that misses strokes.. what can I say.You misspelled correct and thoughts.
I think it is Vees for Victory that says that the RAF experience was that the V-1710 lasted longer than Merlins. But while it was clear that the V-1710 theoretically was much better for field maintenance than the Merlin, being "modular" with a removable accessory section and removable reduction gear section, I've never seen any praise from the Brits for that. Given that RR leaned toward the "craftsman" approach maybe they did not do much in the field but swap engines, anyway. After all, if you are based in the U.K. what's point of tearing down Merlins or Sabres when the factory and the air bases are all located in an area about the size of the Carolinas? By the way, the British WASPs were limited to flying in that area.Now throw in that much of the British early P-40 use was in the dessert and engine life (anybody's) wasn't that good anyway?