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I know that I'm late to the party with this, but as far as the Curtiss XP-46 underperforming, could it be just that it was too underpowered for the weight of the aircraft. It weighed (fully equipped) about the same as a Spitfire IX, but only had 1150 hp, instead of the Spitfire IX that had (depending on Merlin fitted) 1550+-1700 hp. I think that power to weight had a lot to answer for there.
XP-46 was reasonably fast for the power installed, but not fast enough to justify the switch from the in-production P-40 to the P-46. We don't know enough about the RoC, we also don't know enough about the aircraft condition during the tests (presence of protection, radios, guns, ammo, ballast?)
Part of the problem is that the two prototypes differed considerably in weight. And apparently in drag although that is seldom addressed. That or the figures for the XP-46A are the estimated target figures.The XP-46 was about the same weight as the P-40B and slightly less than the P-40C, its near contemporaries.
Don Berlin was no longer at CW when it closed down its aviation division and sold its assets to North American Aviation.
From Curtiss-Wright XF-87 Blackhawk - Wikipedia:
The Curtiss-Wright XF-87 Blackhawk (previously designated the XP-87) was a prototype American all-weather jet fighter interceptor and the company's last aircraft project.[2] Designed as a replacement for the World War II–era propeller-driven P-61 Black Widow night/interceptor aircraft, the XF-87 lost in government procurement competition to the Northrop F-89 Scorpion. The loss of the contract was fatal to the company; the Curtiss-Wright Corporation closed down its aviation division, selling its assets to North American Aviation.
Greg - an old thread that raised a question for me. In convrsation with Berlin's son, What was Berlin's last led airframe, and did he have anything to do with P-40Q?Curtiss WAS cruising along with little in the way of new designs. The XP-46 and XP-60 were basically extended P-40 designs. So was the XP-62. The family resemblance is way too strong. It looks like an overgrown P-36, and the P-40 was just a liquid-cooled P-36. To me the XBTC looks like another itteration, albeit with a different wing shape.
Let's say Shortround and I don't see this the same. Now THERE's a surpise, huh?
Either way, they didn't make the cut, so it's no big deal. They didn't make the cut because their products didn't perform. The XF-87 Blackhawk was just another in a long line of underwhelming designs. It didn't even LOOK modern, at least to me. At least the P-40 looked the part when it came out.
Don't get me wrong here, I like the P-40 and really believe the XP-40Q could have gone into production a LOT sooner than it actually flew. But Curtiss wasn't apparently interested in quantum leaps in performance or they would have been working on developments a LOT sooner.
Curtiss killed themselves with an unbroken line of adequate but not good-performing aircraft. Don Berlin left Curtiss, according to his son, when he wasn't allowed to "develop" the P-40 into a better fighter. His son does a very good presentation that generates a lot of questions. I've seen him at the Planes of Fame, but there were a LOT of people asking questions and we volunteers know that the public comes first. When questions were over we went out and flew our P-40N for the crowd.
Grumman didn't operate that way. They were working on the Hellcat when the Wildcat was into early deliveries and only made minor tweaks when the Koga Zero was found on Akutan Island, were working on the Bearcat a bit after delivering Hellcats and also had the Tigercat in work at the same time. Both flew and got into service before the war's end even if not MUCH before. They were at the top of their game right up through the F-14 Tomcat ... which didn't prevent them from being gobbled up in a corporate grab.
It's almost like the future we see in the original Rollerball movie, where the big corporations rule the world. Not quite ... but we seem to be headed that way.
Supposedly, Berlin was royally P.Oed when C-W management made him take the belly radiator off the P-40 and move it to the nose because they thought it looked better there.
1. The plane went faster with the nose radiator.Supposedly, Berlin was royally P.Oed when C-W management made him take the belly radiator off the P-40 and move it to the nose because they thought it looked better there.
Thanks Greg -Hi Bill,
Unfortunately, my last conversation with Don's son was before 2018 and we just talked about a point HE made in his speech. There were maybe 25 people milling around, including people he was with, so I didn't exactly get much one-on-one time with him.
He did not address Don;s last project that flew. But we all know he was associate with the P-36. P-40, XP-46, and P-75. He was in on the early development of the XP-55 and XSOC3 Seamew. The C-46 was designed by George Page, but Don oversaw the effort. Can't say if he had input. He also supervised the SB2C Helldiver, whose primary designer was Raymond Blaylock. At McDonnell, he oversaw the F3H Demon, the XF-85 Goblin, and the XF-88 Voodoo. In 1953, he went to Piasecki Helicopter and I'd guess his last design, or oversight of same, was there. In 1956, Piasecki became Vertol Helicopter, and they had some great designs. The Chinook is still in service. I think he had a part in the CH-47, but am not sure of that. He was there at the time, so it makes sense he had input or oversight.
The data for the XP-46 were sold to North American. I have no idea if they helped, hurt, or were not a factor in the design of the P-51. I tend to think they weren't much of a factor, but there were surely some data on cooling drag for the engine and oil cooler that might have pushed NAA to look for a "better way" in the P-51 design. I can't really say, other than to speculate ... and that does nobody any good.
AHA! Thanks, I always wondered why the blast tubes for the nose guns were so big on the XP-40.The air intake/s for the carb were routed through the blast tubes for the .50 cal machine guns. The separate intake was added later.
Thanks for that Greg. I'm preparing just such a chronolgy for an upcoming you tube series. I will send to you after I complete the presentation. Yes, if you read my book and note the chronological order of features you will get 90% of what you are asking for.You know Bill, a timeline showing the milestones of P-51 development would be very cool. Maybe just a Microsoft Word document with the significant items in Mustang development, You probably HAVE that already in one of your books.
As an aside, I'm sure everyone is aware that the last Reno Air Races were just completed. Steve Hinton Jr. won Unlimited Gold flying the Bardahl Special. Before this last event, the Bardahl Special last raced at Reno 56 years ago, and was flown then by Chuck Lyford. The livery was the same as for the 1965 races (race # 8). Stevo won his first heat race at 470 mph, but the competition was not really there as the next fastest airplane was the Hawker Sea Fury Dreadnaught (Joel Swagger) at around 440 mph and who blew an engine and was put out of the race. So, Steve pulled back on the power and won his last heat at only 405 mph.
After the T-6 Gold race was run, the six racers were making their way back to the runway when two of them had a mid-air and crashed, killing both pilots. RARA )Reno Air Race Association) cancelled the last two races (Unlimited Silver and Gold) and Steveo won on his last heat speed (405 mph). The Bronze race featured five P-51s and Bell P-63. The P-63 (Patrick Nightingale) finished third as I recall. A lot has been made of the supposed top speed differences between the P-63 and the P-51, but the Bronze race is for basically stock airplanes that are not modified for racing. The P-63 passed a couple of P-51s to get third. The old Allison didn't do too badly at all.
Hey Greg,This was the Bronze Class. All airplanes pretty much stock. Not sure about the Allison, but Joe Yancey built it, so the internals are all 100-series and late parts. Not sure what the data plate dash number is. "Pretty Polly" is a P-63A, so I'm guessing the engine data plate says V-1710-95. The Allisons with the 100-series and late parts make about 1,425 hp at stock WWII-approved MAP and about 1,600 hp if you push them to WER at Reno altitude.
After watching the race, I'm pretty sure they were all pushing the engines to about stock power levels, not WER. I'm guessing the Merlins were mostly running 3000 rpm and about 58 - 61 inches at the start of the race, and the Allison was likely running 3000 rpm at about 57 inches. Surely not any harder than that. I DID notice the P-63 accelerated fairly quickly to take third in the last half-mile of the race. If I were to guess, I'd bet Patrick Nightingale flicked the rpm switch (rpm goes up 200 for every time you move the switch) and went from 3000 to 3200 about then. I'd also bet he flicked it back to 3000 after the finish line. These airplanes are not racers; there was no use in blowing anything, and stock power levels are not very dangerous to engine life assuming you don't set the power to max and leave it for an hour. This was the last hurrah at Reno, so there was some desire to finish well since there would be no repeat any time soon.
I'm sorry they didn't get to run Silver and Gold.
That makes sense- no need for 2nd stage at Reno. I wonder how the -87 would compare to -95.This was the Bronze Class. All airplanes pretty much stock. Not sure about the Allison, but Joe Yancey built it, so the internals are all 100-series and late parts. Not sure what the data plate dash number is. "Pretty Polly" is a P-63A, so I'm guessing the engine data plate says V-1710-95. The Allisons with the 100-series and late parts make about 1,425 hp at stock WWII-approved MAP and about 1,600 hp if you push them to WER at Reno altitude.
After watching the race, I'm pretty sure they were all pushing the engines to about stock power levels, not WER. I'm guessing the Merlins were mostly running 3000 rpm and about 58 - 61 inches at the start of the race, and the Allison was likely running 3000 rpm at about 57 inches. Surely not any harder than that. I DID notice the P-63 accelerated fairly quickly to take third in the last half-mile of the race. If I were to guess, I'd bet Patrick Nightingale flicked the rpm switch (rpm goes up 200 for every time you move the switch) and went from 3000 to 3200 about then. I'd also bet he flicked it back to 3000 after the finish line. These airplanes are not racers; there was no use in blowing anything, and stock power levels are not very dangerous to engine life assuming you don't set the power to max and leave it for an hour. This was the last hurrah at Reno, so there was some desire to finish well since there would be no repeat any time soon.
I'm sorry they didn't get to run Silver and Gold.