D-Day, I find it hare to imagine two things

[bbear]

I'm glad you can bear, and still more glad if you have pride in, your service and thank you.. I ask you to recall that some don't bear it and that many find pride difficult.

I am now quite sure that I have overthought this.
Over to you for a last word if needed


Many thanks for your patience and wise guidance as always.

 

[bbear]

I had a supervisor at Kodak who I never considered had been in combat because he was (I thought) too young for WW2. He was one of those who drank after work and often a bit much.
We had gone on a field installation and got back to the motel when he said he would stay in and for me to go eat. When I came back he was watching a western movie, had a few beers and said " Bullets don't zing when they go by, they pop". Although I was a sport shooter and reloader, I had never thought about the shock wave. So I said " Yes but you have to be pretty close" and he replied "Every German in Belgium was trying to kill me". Years later when PTSD became well known, it was obvious the effect it had on a 17 year old. A few more times when he had enough to drink and we were alone, he would say more. At 17 he went ashore at Normandy two weeks after D day and was in Europe till V-J day.

I think you could say some more, as he "would say more" if you wanted. Especially if you feel that he told you that way so someday the story of his experiences would get out but not affect his family. So could I say more regarding my father, however my judgement may not be 100% competent and disinterested about this subject. High passions are raised. So if you are confident, I'd be obliged if you would go first. Or tell me to be quiet. Either would do.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

I don't think any WW2 Vet is upset that D-Day is being commemorated

My neighbor up the road, 94 years old, once an 18 year old radarman on a destroyer hit and almost sunk by a kamikaze, said yesterday (and repeats every year on memorial day): "Bah, humbug! That's all over and done with. I want to know, who's going to kick Putin's ass?"
Cheers,
Wes

 

[taly01]

I don't think anyone minds D-Day veterans and the battles getting some recognition, but its the gang of politicians up on the grandstand milking the commemoration that they are somehow representating what D-Day stood for that I don't like much.

It ends up a lot of virtue signalling about whos the "most-est" respectable, like when they criticised Trump for not attending a ceremony last year when it was raining.

Macron condemned for snubbing Juno Beach D-Day anniversary ceremony

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I don't think anyone minds D-Day veterans and the battles getting some recognition, but its the gang of politicians up on the grandstand milking the commemoration that they are somehow representating what D-Day stood for that I don't like much.

It ends up a lot of virtue signalling about whos the "most-est" respectable, like when they criticised Trump for not attending a ceremony last year when it was raining.

Macron condemned for snubbing Juno Beach D-Day anniversary ceremony

I'll leave my feelings about the politicians including the current one out of this, as politics is not needed on this forum.

 

[Kevin J]

My neighbor up the road, 94 years old, once an 18 year old radarman on a destroyer hit and almost sunk by a kamikaze, said yesterday (and repeats every year on memorial day): "Bah, humbug! That's all over and done with. I want to know, who's going to kick Putin's ass?"
Cheers,
Wes

It certainly won't be the current set of draft dodging politicians.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

It certainly won't be the current set of draft dodging politicians.

In four more years, it will have been fifty years without a draft, and sixty-eight years since anybody was born who had to worry about it. For any male born in the last sixty-four years, the draft has been a non-issue.
It's about time every able bodied American, male or female, spent at least two years in national service (not necessarily military) before they go into secondary education or the job market. No excuses, no exceptions. CCC and WPA gave a whole generation of Americans job training, healthy living, a sense of discipline, and a sense of patriotism that allowed us as a nation to rebound from the depression and kick some Axis butt! Now we call them "the greatest generation".
Cheers,
Wes

 

[Kevin J]

In four more years, it will have been fifty years without a draft, and sixty-eight years since anybody was born who had to worry about it. For any male born in the last sixty-four years, the draft has been a non-issue.
It's about time every able bodied American, male or female, spent at least two years in national service (not necessarily military) before they go into secondary education or the job market. No excuses, no exceptions. CCC and WPA gave a whole generation of Americans job training, healthy living, a sense of discipline, and a sense of patriotism that allowed us as a nation to rebound from the depression and kick some Axis butt! Now we call them "the greatest generation".
Cheers,
Wes

I like the idea, we should do it over here in the UK. Minimum wage of £20 per hour. Women have to give up their jobs when they get married as they have a husband to pay for them. Politicians only paid what the unemployed and the sick get on benefits. That would straighten them out pretty quickly.

 

[bbear]

These are policy ideas, consideration of which could lead us directly into politics.

On an historical note in WW2 women in the UK were effectively drafted although they often had a choice of service arm to join. Approximately 200,000 chose to join the ATS or were compelled to do so. Duties included administrative tasks, motor transport* and serving AA guns in 'mixed' AA batteries. They performed all roles other than No.1 I think it's called. That is they were forbidden to actually fire the gun, thus they could retain their non-combatant status they had from their Axiliasry status to fully accepted members of the armed forces thus justifying their wage rate of 66% of male equivalent. Casualties 329 dead I believe out of 70,000 or 200,000 So 66% of full pay seems reasonable to me.

I believe that mixed batteries employed somewhere between 35,000 and 70,000 women, their role in shooting down V-1s in the months after D -Day being particularly notable** 51 mixed HAA regiments eventually formed. Numbers include searchlight operators.

The all-male draft was challenged all the way to the Supreme Court in 1981 on the basis that such single sex draft was illegal or unconstitutional after the passing of the Equalities Act. The organisation most prominent in funding the challenge was the National Organisation of Women.

Women are increasingly taking on combat roles in many countries.

Given that voluntary background and the equality agenda since WW2 I can't see an All Male draft washing in the UK or US. Women would not stand for it. I think that s the direction you are going in if you put restrictions on women's employment

* you may recall that our current Queen, Elizabeth Windsor, Ezabeth I by the grace of God etc was in the ATS as a motor mechanic Princess oily rag - straight up.
**when male crewed batteries departed for France (including 2x 90mm American Regiments which were particularly well equipped and trained).

A bibliography and source
http://americanhistoryprojects.com/downloads/ww2/combat.pdf
https://history.unt.edu/sites/history.unt.edu/files/users/dsg0009/anti_aircraft_bib.pdf (for sourcing, i have not read this list)
Principal root refrences for numbers of women in Anti Aircraft Command 16. General Sir Frederick Arthur Pile, Ack-Ack (London, 1949), 186; See also J.W.N., "'Mixed' Batteries," Journal of the Royal Artillery 69 (1942): 199-206
The service for many was brief, just the V-1 crisis 4 months. Mixed regiments were shut down fairly quickly as men cleard the V-1 launch sites in Norterrn France.
additional site for numbers of mixed units
Northumbrian Gunner: National Arboretum - ATS Ack Ack Girls Memorial
General Reference
Gunfire! British Artillery in the Second World War Stig H. Moberg
Ubique: The Royal Artillery in the Second World War Richard Doherty

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Women have to give up their jobs when they get married as they have a husband to pay for them.

That would never fly in today's world. Taking ideas from the 1930s is not the same as adopting the social norms of that era wholesale. I can see restricting a married couple to only one "career type" full time job (plus part time work for the other if necessary), but applying gender restrictions on it is a non-starter.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[bbear]

That would never fly in today's world. Taking ideas from the 1930s is not the same as adopting the social norms of that era wholesale. I can see restricting a married couple to only one "career type" full time job (plus part time work for the other if necessary), but applying gender restrictions on it is a non-starter.
Cheers,
Wes

Personally I think there is massive scope for "job sharing" where 2 or more people cover one job between them. As long as the employer only has to deal with one administraive "job"* for the 2 or more workers the employer gets continuity and reliability improvements (for holidays, parental leave, sickness, etc) plus the option if demand for product or service increases the employer can nominally expand the workforce by up to 2x for a 'spurt' if demand falls some shares may choose to merge rather than take redundancy for a long term "slump".

But I fear we are straying quite some way from the topic.

*one set of employment taxes, pay, company health insurance contribution if any, company pension if any (ha ha - you can tell I'm old)

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I agree, this is completely off topic. Get it back or the thread will have run its course.

 

[Kevin J]

That would never fly in today's world. Taking ideas from the 1930s is not the same as adopting the social norms of that era wholesale. I can see restricting a married couple to only one "career type" full time job (plus part time work for the other if necessary), but applying gender restrictions on it is a non-starter.
Cheers,
Wes

70% of all women's jobs are due to be taken over by robots, so we'll have to give them something useful to do.

 

[bbear]

ok, back on topic. Ike could imagine a lot of things, including failure

"Our landings in the Cherbourg-Havre area have failed to gain a satisfactory foothold and I have withdrawn the troops. My decision to attack at this time and place was based on the best information available. The troops, the air and the Navy did all that bravery and devotion to duty could do. If any blame or fault attaches to the attempt it is mine alone."

Do those simple words, put in the mouths of all SNAFU Commanders adequately ensure that the greatness of that generation is honored in perpetuity?

I think I might be re-running an earllier comment, it was not my intention.

 

[Kevin J]

These are policy ideas, consideration of which could lead us directly into politics.

On an historical note in WW2 women in the UK were effectively drafted although they often had a choice of service arm to join. Approximately 200,000 chose to join the ATS or were compelled to do so. Duties included administrative tasks, motor transport* and serving AA guns in 'mixed' AA batteries. They performed all roles other than No.1 I think it's called. That is they were forbidden to actually fire the gun, thus they could retain their non-combatant status they had from their Axiliasry status to fully accepted members of the armed forces thus justifying their wage rate of 66% of male equivalent. Casualties 329 dead I believe out of 70,000 or 200,000 So 66% of full pay seems reasonable to me.

I believe that mixed batteries employed somewhere between 35,000 and 70,000 women, their role in shooting down V-1s in the months after D -Day being particularly notable** 51 mixed HAA regiments eventually formed. Numbers include searchlight operators.

The all-male draft was challenged all the way to the Supreme Court in 1981 on the basis that such single sex draft was illegal or unconstitutional after the passing of the Equalities Act. The organisation most prominent in funding the challenge was the National Organisation of Women.

Women are increasingly taking on combat roles in many countries.

Given that voluntary background and the equality agenda since WW2 I can't see an All Male draft washing in the UK or US. Women would not stand for it. I think that s the direction you are going in if you put restrictions on women's employment

* you may recall that our current Queen, Elizabeth Windsor, Ezabeth I by the grace of God etc was in the ATS as a motor mechanic Princess oily rag - straight up.
**when male crewed batteries departed for France (including 2x 90mm American Regiments which were particularly well equipped and trained).

A bibliography and source
http://americanhistoryprojects.com/downloads/ww2/combat.pdf
https://history.unt.edu/sites/history.unt.edu/files/users/dsg0009/anti_aircraft_bib.pdf (for sourcing, i have not read this list)
Principal root refrences for numbers of women in Anti Aircraft Command 16. General Sir Frederick Arthur Pile, Ack-Ack (London, 1949), 186; See also J.W.N., "'Mixed' Batteries," Journal of the Royal Artillery 69 (1942): 199-206
The service for many was brief, just the V-1 crisis 4 months. Mixed regiments were shut down fairly quickly as men cleard the V-1 launch sites in Norterrn France.
additional site for numbers of mixed units
Northumbrian Gunner: National Arboretum - ATS Ack Ack Girls Memorial
General Reference
Gunfire! British Artillery in the Second World War Stig H. Moberg
Ubique: The Royal Artillery in the Second World War Richard Doherty

IIRC all our women were volunteers.

 

[bbear]

IIRC all our women were volunteers.

According to sources already cited unmarrrid women aged 20-40 IIRC were called mostly could choose war work ( Land Army, munitions) or servie and arm, but at times the ATS under-recruited so some were compelled but never to join Ack Ack

So yes but no . .. .. .

back to topic?

 

[Kevin J]

According to sources already cited unmarrrid women aged 20-40 IIRC were called mostly could choose war work ( Land Army, munitions) or servie and arm, but at times the ATS under-recruited so some were compelled but never to join Ack Ack

So yes but no . .. .. .

back to topic?

My mother was 17 in 1942. She never got asked to serve. I know no woman in my wider family that was. Just the men. Volunteer women only.

 

[bbear]

My mother was 17 in 1942. She never got asked to serve. I know no woman in my wider family that was. Just the men. Volunteer women only.

All I know is it was in December 1941, the National Service Act made the conscription of women legal. "At first, only single women aged 20-30 were called up, but by mid-1943, almost 90 per cent of single women and 80 per cent of married women were employed in essential work for the war effort. "

I can't account for your fmily's experiences. Was she in a protected trade, perhaps a farm hand?

 

[Kevin J]

All I know is it was in December 1941, the National Service Act made the conscription of women legal. "At first, only single women aged 20-30 were called up, but by mid-1943, almost 90 per cent of single women and 80 per cent of married women were employed in essential work for the war effort. "

I can't account for your fmily's experiences. Was she in a protected trade, perhaps a farm hand?

Her Dad was a partner in an Estate Agency. Does that count? I don't know what she did, never asked.

 

[bbear]

Her Dad was a partner in an Estate Agency. Does that count? I don't know what she did, never asked.

Not as far as I know. Every woman has to register, so you could start there,. Mystery , , , infant school teacher?