Death Trap Aircraft

[plan_D]

"It didn't provide the Brits with any operational advantage over any other aircraft they had to choose from so they gave it back to the US."

No, the 2nd TAF removed the Ventura from front-line service because not only did it offer no advantage over other types in service, but it was worse than other types in service. And was shot down in droves. They found it to be terrible, and I've provided the quote from AVM Embry that says as much.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

"The Ventura had the same overall configuration as the Hudson which preceded it, but it was somewhat larger, heavier, and more powerful. As compared to the Hudson, the dorsal turret was moved forward to improve the field of fire. Early production aircraft had two 0.303-inch machine guns installed in this turret, but later production aircraft increased this to four. Twin flexible 0.303-inch machine guns were mounted in the extreme nose. A pair of flexible 0.303-inch machine guns were mounted in a ventral position behind the wing trailing edge. This gun position gave a distinct kink to the aft fuselage. Two fixed forward-firing 0.50-inch machine guns were installed in the upper decking of the nose. A bomb load of 2500 pounds could be carried in the internal bay. Internal fuel capacity was reduced from 644 US gallons in the Lodestar to 565 US gallons for the Ventura. As on the Lodestar, a set of Fowler flaps were installed on the wing trailing edge, extending all the way from the ailerons inward to the fuselage. When fully extended, these flaps increased the wing area from 551 to 619 square feet.

The first Ventura (AE658 ) took off on its maiden flight at the Lockheed Air Terminal on July 31, 1941. Although the dorsal turret was mounted, no armament was actually fitted. The Ventura I (Model 37-21-01) was powered by a pair of 1850 hp Pratt Whitney S1A4-G Double Wasps. 188 were delivered under the original British contract, with serials being AE658/AE845. One (AE662) was fitted with a pair of 2200 hp Wright R-3350 engines as a testbed for the engine installation in the Constellation transport. It had a shortened nose to permit propeller clearance.

Deliveries of Venturas to Britain began in September of 1941. 21 of the early production run of Ventura Is (AE658, AE659, AE661, AE663/AE674, AE676/AE678, AE696, AE703 and AE728 ) were retained in Canada for the RCAF. At least six (AE690, AE694, AE727, AE752, AE754, AE765) were transferred to the South African Air Force.

The Ventura II (Model 37-27-01) was generally similar to the Ventura I, but was powered by 2000 hp Pratt Whitney R-2800-31s instead of the Double Wasp S1A4-Gs of the Mark I version. It had a redesigned bomb bay capable of carrying 3000 pounds of bombs or 780-gallon ferry tanks. Production totaled 487 aircraft (the 112 aircraft of AE846/AE957 which filled out the remainder of the original British contract, plus the 375 aircraft in the second contract AJ163/AJ537). Only 196 Ventura IIs actually reached Commonwealth forces, with 264 (among these AJ235/AJ442) being retained by the USAAF as Model 37s. For some reason, they never got USAAF designations or serial numbers.

The Ventura I was first delivered to the RAF in September of 1941, and went into service with No 21 Squadron at Bodney, Norfolk, in May of 1942. It also served with Nos 464 (RAAF) and 487 (RNZAF) Squadrons. It flew its first combat mission on November 3, 1942, an attack by three aircraft of No. 21 Squadron against a factory at Hengelo which had to be diverted into a raid against railway lines instead.

47 Venturas from Nos 21, 464, and 487 Squadrons took part along with Mosquitos and Bostons in a daylight low-level attack on December 6, 1942 against the Philips radio and vacuum tube factory at Eindhoven in the Netherlands. The raid did not go well--nine of the Venturas were shot down and 37 were damaged.

After this disaster, the Venturas switched to medium-altitude missions and attacked numerous targets in occupied Europe. On April 4, a formation of 24 Venturs were sent to bomb the Caen/Carpiquet airfield whereas another 24 Venturas were sent to attack the shipyards at Rotterdam. Two Venturas attacking Rotterdam were shot down by German fighters and three more were shot down by fighters on the Brest raid. On April 21, when Venturas of No 21 Squadron hit the marshaling yards at Abbeville, three more shot down by fighters. On May 3, 1943, eleven Venturas from No 487 Squadron attacked a power station in Amsterdam, but only one Ventura survived determined attacks from German fighters. The formation leader, Sqdn Ldr Leonard H. Trent, managed to shoot down a Bf 109 with his forward-firing guns before being shot down himself. Sqdn Ldr Trent was captured and spent the rest of the war in a POW camp. He managed to survive the war, and was later awarded the Victoria Cross for his bravery.

On May 24, No. 487 Squadron resumed operations. An attack on a power station and coking plant at Zeebrugge came off without losses. On May 29, No. 21 Squadron attacked Zeebrugge again. Two Venturas got involved in a midair collision. One made it back safely, but the other was lost.

On June 22, 1942, Wing Commander R. H. S. King, commander of No. 21 Squadron and his crew were killed when their Ventura was hit by flak in an attack on an enemy gun position near the Abbeville-Drucat airfield.

The Ventura was never very popular with its RAF crews. It was 50 mph faster than the Hudson which preceded it and had a bombload of 2500 pounds instead of the former's 1000 pounds, but it was over 7500 pounds heavier. Losses were high, and the aircraft was not really suitable as a bomber. The RAF Ventura I and II bombers were replaced by deHavilland Mosquitos by the summer of 1943. The last Ventura sortie took place with No. 21 Squadron on September 9, 1943.

After being phased out of the bombardment role, a number of Ventura Is were modified as Ventura G.R.Is for the Coastal Command beginning in the fall of 1943. These Ventura G.R.ls served with Nos. 519 and 521 Squadrons of RAF Coastal Command and with Nos 13 and 500 Squadrons in the Mediterranean.

21 Ventura Mk. Is and 108 Mk. II/IIAs were diverted to the Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) from British contracts. The first Ventura I was received in June of 1942. The Ventura I and II aircraft retained in Canada were used exclusively in training roles and never saw combat. They retained their RAF serial numbers, and were assigned to No 340 Operational Training Unit at Pennfield Ridge, New Brunswick and No 1 Central Flying School at Trenton, Ontario.

The South African Air Force received 135 Ventura Mk I and II aircraft (SAAF serials 6001 to 6135). They equipped three Squadrons (Nos 17, 22, and 27) which initially operated at home to protect shipping routes around the Cape. They also served in the Mediterranean. Venturas of No. 17 Squadron carried out anti-shipping strikes off the coast of Italy, and No 452 flew a few night intruder missions. No 27 Squadron took over 500 Squadron's surviving Venturas and later operated from Malta. Venturas were operated by No. 27 Squadron until January of 1945, while other wartime Venturas, particularly in No. 299 Squadron of the RAF, were used as transports.

Although 264 British-ordered Ventura IIs were taken over by the USAAF and operated under the unorthodox designation of Model 37, the USAAF actually made only limited use of this aircraft in combat. Early in the war, several Model 37s were used for antisubmarine patrols, but most USAAF Venturas were used mainly for training at such stateside units as the Bomber Training Group at Randolph Field, the AAF Gunnery School at Laredo, Texas, and the AAF Navigation School at San Marcos, Texas.

The last 27 Ventura IIs on the British order were delivered to the US Navy under the designation PV-3. Their RAF serials were AJ511/AJ537), and they were assigned the Navy BuNos 33925/33951. They were assigned in October 1942 to VP-82 which operated from Newfoundland on anti-submarine patrols over the Atlantic."

From J. Baugher..

It seems D is correct about this. It was probably training and the way the aircraft were being deployed. It goes back to the old saying, "Never fly an "A" or "MK I" model of any aircraft....

 

[plan_D]

Thank you. And good post.

No. 21, 464, and 487 Squadrons were all in the 2nd Tactical Air Force. I got the information on the Ventura from it's 1943 missions with the 2nd TAF, and 2 Group from June to the Ventura being withdrawn. A mildly interesting note, before the Ventura's were replaced by Mosquitoes, the bomber arm of the 2nd TAF was completely equipped with American-made planes (Mitchells, Bostons and Venturas.)

 

[k9kiwi]

487 formed at RAF Feltwell 15 August 1942. Equipped with Venturas.

Transferred to 2nd TAF 1 June 1943

Re-equipped with Mosquito Bombers August 1943

Re-equipped Mosquito FB February 1944.

Squadron motto "Ki te mutunga" basically "To the End" in Maori.

So they operated Venturas for under 2 months in 2nd TAF, that is long enough to come up with your supposition. Good Grief.

PS. I thought they were useless because of not enough bombs or not good as fighters, or...... Oh never mind.


Sqn Ldr Trent. Trent Way at the old RNZAF Base Hobsonvile is named after him.

 

[jakal]

Hey, anything with a tail or belly gun position was a *****!

 

[plan_D]

"So they operated Venturas for under 2 months in 2nd TAF, that is long enough to come up with your supposition. Good Grief."

Aren't you the little jackass? I came to my conclusion from the Ventura's time in 2nd TAF - when the RAF got rid of it because it was useless. I also had AVM Embry's opinion, and RAF crew opinions, to support my idea. 2 months in war is a long time.

And that lip wasn't required dipshit, I don't know who you think you are, but you're not anything on here.

 

[jakal]

262 mistle 6.jpg (1.9 KB)

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

i fail to see how it could've been a death trap if it never even materialised, would've looked cool though, and no more dangerous than a normal -262..........

 

[k9kiwi]

1. It was called "The Pig" by its crews.

2. The last Ventura bomber operation was September 1943 in the ETO.

3. The RAF (not 2nd TAF) decided to replace them in this theatre, they were still used in other areas, Costal Command, Far East, Pacific theatres etc.

4. The Ventura Squadrons were transferred to 2nd TAF because the RAF already knew they were going to re-equipped with better airframes as they became available and could transition the crews, a process that does not happen overnight.

With this re-equipping the squadrons would then be better suited to the requirements of 2nd TAF, and had time to assimilate to their new command structure.

One example of this system failing, was a P/O RNZAF who was transferred to 487 during transition to Mosquitos from the NZ Beaufighter Squadron. Someone forgot to realise he had not done the requried conversion course and he killed himself on his second training flight.

5. I have never assumed (nor wanted) to be "anything" on here, I have slightly higher aims in life.

6. Little Jackass? dipshit? Get a F***ing life. The only times I have been in the Sh!t, is when I had to obey orders from Occifers that didn't know their arse from their elbow.

 

[plan_D]

I already stated the Ventura was known as "the Pig" - you're telling me things I already know to try and make yourself look somewhat intelligent. At least it seems that way.

That last post of yours, and the one before was pointless. I never said the 2nd TAF ordered the Ventura to be replaced. I said I got the idea of the RAF hatred toward it from the 2nd TAF history. I seem to notice you do this a lot on here, go around the threads and jump in all high and mighty with information everyone has already produced.

 

[k9kiwi]

Note to self.

In future, don't have an opinion on a forum.

 

[plan_D]

Opinion? I don't consider you thinking it pathetic that I based my conclusion on 2nd TAF history of the Ventura (and the relevent pilot accounts) a valid, and worthwhile, opinion.

 

[k9kiwi]

Anyway.

Regarding the Defiant. Finally found the schematic I was looking for.

Whenever possible the gunner should abandon the aeroplane through the opening made by sliding aside the the cupola doors; this action also retracts the adjacent fairing. If the cupola cannot be used, the gunner should escape through the service hatch in the floor of the fuselage aft of the gun turret, but first the turret must be rotated to the "guns forward" position, and the undercarriage lowered to retract the rear aerial mast.

 

[loomaluftwaffe]

interesting

 

[pejayte]

The Mosquito was loved by the crew her flew them. But it was notoriously difficult to leave in a hurry. Also, incendiary shells often quickly turned it into a ball of fire. If the crew made it home in a damaged aircraft, a wheels up landing often took the legs off the crew due to the wooden belly disintergrating

 

[loomaluftwaffe]

ouch

 

[Parmigiano]

What about the SB2C Helldiver? Apparently was named 'Son of a Bitxh 2nd Class' by the crew: was that an appropriate nickname?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

What about the SB2C Helldiver? Apparently was named 'Son of a Bitxh 2nd Class' by the crew: was that an appropriate nickname?

I once met a guy who flew the Helldiver, I asked him the same thing. It was difficult to fly and maintain and had a lot of teething problems when it first entered service.

 

[Gaudet]

I'm a researcher of the former air station at Pennfield Ridge (RAF No.34 OTU -42-44)... which used the Ventura as it's principal aircraft. Tons of accidents, over 65 casualities so far confirmed... in my non-aviator opinion, the Ventura was over powered and there were never enough dual control a/c for proper training. The boys that flew them on regular training and got to know how the a/c behaved, love them. But put a fella that is used to a slower machine ussually spelled disaster.

 

[timshatz]

Anyway.

Regarding the Defiant. Finally found the schematic I was looking for.

Whenever possible the gunner should abandon the aeroplane through the opening made by sliding aside the the cupola doors; this action also retracts the adjacent fairing. If the cupola cannot be used, the gunner should escape through the service hatch in the floor of the fuselage aft of the gun turret, but first the turret must be rotated to the "guns forward" position, and the undercarriage lowered to retract the rear aerial mast.

Deathtrap. Gotta be brave to fly in one of those things in combat.