Did the P40 fly in the Battle Of Britain? (3 Viewers)

re
How one can operate a Hurricane with a Merlin 28? A different propeller? Can someone elaborate on this question, please?
There may have been some Canadian built Hurricanes built with the Merlin 28 and/or 29, but as far as I know, the Merlin 28 were only used operationally by the Canadian built Lancasters [Mk X] and occasionally some British built Lancasters [Mk III] that were fitted with the Merlin 28. I do not think any Canadian built Hurricanes with Merlin 28 or 29 saw combat, with the Merlin XX being fitted upon arrival of the airframes in England.

Maybe there were some Canadian built SeaHurricanes with Merlin 29 that saw operations??

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The P-40N was meant as a fighter bomber, it did not need the extra altitude performance the Merlin supplied.
This may be true and it might not be true. What was planned short term and what was planned long term may be different things.
They built about 5220 (?) P-40Ns from March 1943 until Nov 1944 under a number of contracts and dash numbers.
The first 400 built were called "base fighters" officially, they may have had other un-official names. With only 4 guns, limited ammo, one fuel tank taken out, aluminum radiators and oil coolers and other weight saving measures (taking out the electric starter and using a small battery may not have been a good idea) that saved 464lbs off the empty weight. Normal gross was about 580lbs less than a P-40M.
The -5 (1100 built) model got the 6 guns armament back, restored the normal fuel tankage and put back some of the normal operational equipment (electric starter and big battery).
Another change was changing the bomb load from a nominal 500lbs under the fuselage and one 100lb under each wing to three 500lb bombs. What units did the field could be different. At some point P-40Ns were rated at a single 1000lb bomb under each wing and a 500lb under the fuselage for a 2500lb total.
With Curtiss cranking out over 300 airplanes per month P-40N-1 production did not last long.

What was 'planned' in late 1942/early 1942 may have crossed over. The 400 'stripper' versions seem to be planned for base defense/interception. How they were used may be different. The -5s and later models were planned for the fighter-bomber mission.
Difference between orders/construction and service had delays. The March/April built P-40N-1s didn't see combat until June 1943 in the Med and July with the 5th Air Force in the SW Pacific and Sept with the 80th FG over Burma.
Increased numbers of P-38s and P-47s meant that interceptor versions of the P-40 were not needed as much as they thought (?). In any case the switch to fighter bomber had already occurred.
What is sort of interesting is that the P-40Ns all used basically the same engine with the 9.60 supercharger gear and 1200hp for take-off instead of the older 8.80 gear which allowed for 1325hp for T.O. Maybe the proliferation of US bulldozers meant that most US bases got longer runways?
 
... Maybe the proliferation of US bulldozers meant that most US bases got longer runways?

In order to support an operation at a rate of 2000 lbs bombs and 100 gallons of fuel (at least) per sortie one may expect some investment in the airfield facilities. My understanding is during the summer of 1943 and beyond this kind of effort was becoming a norm, even for China-Burma-India theatre of operations.

Best regards,
Yavor
 
Merlin XX propeller reduction gear 0.42 to 1, British (SBAC) propeller shaft
Merlin 28 propeller reduction gear 0.42 to 1, British (SBAC) propeller shaft
Merlin 29 propeller reduction gear 0.477 to 1, US (Spline) propeller shaft
V-1650-1 propeller reduction gear 0.477 to 1, US (Spline) propeller shaft

Packard produced two batches each of 240 Merlin 29, first February/March 1942 plus 1 in April, second July to December 1942. The 480 Hamilton 23E50 propellers for the engines were produced March to August 1942. Canada then used them to build 400 Hurricane IIB(Can)/mark XII June 1942 to May 1943, alongside the final 101 RAF order aircraft February/March 1943. As noted 150 of the Canadian order were sent to Britain.

Again as noted the British record the arrival of 234 Hurricane II fitted with Merlin 28, called mark III while the engine was retained, prototype was DG633 with Canadian-built aircraft JS220, JS244 and JS322 reported as further Mk.III trials aircraft.

All 4 of the above engines could be fitted to a Hurricane, P-40F or L.

Please understand Canada exported incomplete Hurricane airframes, one reason they were so suitable for conversion to Sea Hurricanes. Few Canadian built Hurricanes were test flown immediately after assembly and in fact most as rolled out of the factory were not ready to fly even if an engine was available. A report in December 1941 noted stored mark I airframes were complete less wheels, brakes, tyres and tubes but needing engines, propellers, instruments, and all other appendix A Serial 1160 Embodiment Loan Equipment. The mark II then in production emerged from the factory in a similar state to those stored, "require from England, wheels, brakes, air compressors and drives and couplers for same, hydraulic pump drives and couplings, airscrews and instruments". The brakes being magnesium alloy castings. The ex RCAF order aircraft were stripped down to this sort of standard before export. This freed Merlin 29 to upgrade the survivors of 30 Hurricane I fitted with Merlin III and propellers from Fairey Battle as an emergency measure in early 1942 plus the survivors of 50 Sea Hurricane I meant as the North American pool for the Merchant Ship Fighter Unit but absorbed into the RCAF.

The rebuild of Packard Merlins imported to the UK was very common as Packard built huge whole batches of engines without modifications so that they could produce the volume. Where UK rebuild to incorporate updates was found to be worthwhile, those engines were rebuilt.
Interesting.

So, it is not that strange that the Hurricane engines were removed for Lancasters and the Hurricanes got the Merlin XX fitted.
The removal of the Merlin 28 from imported Hurricanes had nothing to do with engine modifications, it meant all Hurricane II had the Merlin XX engine as a world wide standard, rather than complicating the supply situation with a relatively small number of "non standard" engines which gave the aircraft the same performance anyway.

The British concentrated their US Merlins in Lancasters, none fitted to Halifax or British built Mosquito for example, this simplified maintenance requirements. Canada and Australia used US Merlins for their relevant production. When the Merlin 266 arrived for Spitfires the mark XVI was kept in Britain or North West Europe, mark IX exported to overseas commands and the USSR.

There may have been some Canadian built Hurricanes built with the Merlin 28 and/or 29, but as far as I know, the Merlin 28 were only used operationally by the Canadian built Lancasters and occasionally some British built Lancasters that were refitted with the Merlin 28.
After losses at sea the British record the arrival of 4,937 Merlin 28 from May 1942 to July 1943. Lancaster III production began in December 1942, with 738 built by end July 1943, with another 640 Merlin 28 engine and 721 Merlin 28 power plants in stock. Merlin 38, which was the next Packard Merlin for Lancaster, began production in March 1943.

Canadian Lancaster production began in August 1943, the first 75 used Merlin 38 according to Harry Holmes, then Merlin 224.

Agreed no Hurricane III saw combat.

This may be true and it might not be true. What was planned short term and what was planned long term may be different things.
Yes.

They built about 5220 (?) P-40Ns from March 1943 until Nov 1944 under a number of contracts and dash numbers.
Minor point, all P-40N were ordered under contract AC-34423, the first 2,000 on 25 January 1943 under the H program "Acceleration" which had been approved April 1942, with a further 2,000 approved under the I program (Fiscal year 1943), this included the XP-40Q, then 1,000 under the J program (Fiscal year 1944) under Supplement 4 to the contract, dated 14 February 1944, then another 1,000 under Supplement 22 dated 30 June 1944, this final 1,000 was cut to 700 in August and 220 in September 1944. Result 5,219 P-40N, 1 XP-40Q., consisting of 400 N-1, 1,100 N-5, 100 N-10, 377 N-15, 1,523 N-20, 499 N-25, 500 N-30, 500 N-35, 220 N-40

The first 400 built were called "base fighters" officially, they may have had other un-official names. With only 4 guns, limited ammo, one fuel tank taken out, aluminum radiators and oil coolers and other weight saving measures (taking out the electric starter and using a small battery may not have been a good idea) that saved 464lbs off the empty weight. Normal gross was about 580lbs less than a P-40M.
Seems to be a last ditch attempt at having speed and climb performance. "Similar to the P-40, E, K and M types of airplanes except as follows; Different engine with boost control; armament 4 0.50 cal. wing guns; no provisions for wing bombs, increased armour plate protection; no front wing tank; mechanical landing gear, flaps and indicators; non metallic tanks; SCR-522 radio; alternate SCR-274N; Type A-12 demand oxygen system. [Acceptance March 1943, stripped light weight P-40 similar to P-40H except change in armament, removal of battery, starter and auxiliary wing fuel tanks saving 484 pounds. Items reinstalled in service and N-5's were fully equipped]"
The -5 (1100 built) model got the 6 guns armament back, restored the normal fuel tankage and put back some of the normal operational equipment (electric starter and big battery).
"redesignated with the following: landing gear book; revised pilot's seat; provisions for complete SCR-695 radio equipment; recognition lights; revised fuselage rear vision; provisions for wing bombs and wing fuel tanks; draft curtain; substitution of 27 inch magnesium wheels. [Armament increase, addition of auxiliary wing fuel tanks, wing racks to accommodate larger fuel tanks or bombs. Provision for trans Atlantic towing by B-17]"

The 27 inch wheels did not really work out well with the heavier loads, it took to the N-40 to restore the 30 inch wheels.

With Curtiss cranking out over 300 airplanes per month P-40N-1 production did not last long. ... The March/April built P-40N-1s didn't see combat until June 1943 in the Med and July with the 5th Air Force in the SW Pacific and Sept with the 80th FG over Burma.
I am struggling to find USAAF use of the P-40N in the Mediterranean, the 12th Air Force reporting as late as April 1944 not even for training. The three RAF squadrons operating Kittyhawk IV, 112, 250 and 450 report equipping in April 1944, January 1944 and October 1943, 5 SAAF in October 1943, 11 SAAF in November 1944, 3 RAAF April 1944. The British reporting the first Kittyhawk IV imports around July 1943, end month the RAF census reporting 14 in the Middle east, 81 en route, while 5 had already been lost overseas and 3 en route.

Australia reports the first deliveries to the RAAF in mid July 1943, New Zealand to the RNZAF in June. RAAF A29-434 = USAAF 42-104969 Sent as part of a 25 aircraft shipment to 5th AAF USAAF. Not a RAAF Contracted P-40N-5 but possible replacement for single P-40N-1, 42-104659 ex Mac Air A29-1001 that was issued to 49thFG as first of P-40N type received for evaluation 15 July 1943.

There were 400 N-1, production finishing in mid May 1943, to end May 1943 a total of 618 P-40N had been accepted.

P-40N the 3 months March to May 1943, total acceptances 54, 184, 380, total deliveries, 54, 177, 364, total exports, 44, 95, 239, Acceptances by user:
USAAF 10, 81, 91
Australia 0, 9, 80 (exported same month as accepted)
Britain, 0, 0, 106 (102 exported in May)
Britain for USSR 44, 86, 0 (exported same month as accepted)
Canada, 0, 7, 3 (6 exported in May)
China 0, 0, 30 (exports from June)
NEI 0, 0, 1 (exported same month as accepted)
New Zealand 0, 0, 50 (exported same month as accepted)

I believe exported is the USAAF handed control over to the relevant authority, not departed US.
 
Merlin XX propeller reduction gear 0.42 to 1, British (SBAC) propeller shaft
...
For Hurricane II, the Merlin XX reduction gear was 0.477 (21 : 44). The same gear ratio was used in V-1650-1, P-40F(L). Few contemporary documents claim otherwise in ERROR.
I know no Hurricane II specific document stating different reduction gear ratio. With a different gear ratio comes different propeller (different diameter, blade design, etc; heavier propeller needs stronger propeller shaft, different gearbox). As Engineman mentioned, it is possible to convert an engine from 0.477 (fighter) to 0.42 (bomber) gear box but it is a heavy overhaul operation, not something which can be done during routine maintenance.
May be a 0.42 (21 : 50) gear ratio was used on some Hurricane IV prototypes?

Best regards,
Yavor
 
The removal of the Merlin 28 from imported Hurricanes had nothing to do with engine modifications, it meant all Hurricane II had the Merlin XX engine as a world wide standard, rather than complicating the supply situation with a relatively small number of "non standard" engines which gave the aircraft the same performance anyway.
Yes, this sounds likely, and ditto the situation with the Lancasters getting those Merlin 28's to have a Packard fleet standard (or partial standard).
My point was that big swoppsies and modifications was the norm for imported Packard Merlins for the RAF.
The British concentrated their US Merlins in Lancasters, none fitted to Halifax or British built Mosquito for example, this simplified maintenance requirements.
Yes, similar situation, the Mosquito had a reverse flow coolant circuit, I guess the Lancaster fleet could absorb all the Merlin 28's with less engineering.

Cheers

Eng

 
For Hurricane II, the Merlin XX reduction gear was 0.477 (21 : 44). The same gear ratio was used in V-1650-1, P-40F(L). Few contemporary documents claim otherwise in ERROR.
I know no Hurricane II specific document stating different reduction gear ratio. With a different gear ratio comes different propeller (different diameter, blade design, etc; heavier propeller needs stronger propeller shaft, different gearbox). As Engineman mentioned, it is possible to convert an engine from 0.477 (fighter) to 0.42 (bomber) gear box but it is a heavy overhaul operation, not something which can be done during routine maintenance.
May be a 0.42 (21 : 50) gear ratio was used on some Hurricane IV prototypes?

Best regards,
Yavor

Hi,

My information is that the .42 reduction ratio was standard for most Merlin applications, the .477 being for Merlin Spitfire and a few other types. There are differences in Packard Merlin production, in this context, Packard are credited with a .479 ratio on some engines although I do not know if this is a mistake?

Eng
 
Seems to be a last ditch attempt at having speed and climb performance. "Similar to the P-40, E, K and M types of airplanes except as follows; Different engine with boost control; armament 4 0.50 cal. wing guns; no provisions for wing bombs, increased armour plate protection; no front wing tank; mechanical landing gear, flaps and indicators; non metallic tanks; SCR-522 radio; alternate SCR-274N; Type A-12 demand oxygen system. [Acceptance March 1943, stripped light weight P-40 similar to P-40H except change in armament, removal of battery, starter and auxiliary wing fuel tanks saving 484 pounds. Items reinstalled in service and N-5's were fully equipped]"
Yes, and at minimum cost/complication.
There was a test plane (except it was a P-40L) with most of the modifications in Nov 1942.
But at this point in time (Jan 1943) there are 3-4000 (or more) P-51B/Cs on order. They just won't start showing up until summer/fall of 1943.
P-47s had just arrived in England, fewer than 600 had been built and Curtiss and Evansville production was barely into double digits.
P-38s, regardless of number on order, are behind schedule (so are P-47s) and as far as planning goes, the P-38H won't leave the plant until the same month the P-40N-1 will.
The need for a high performance P-40 in late 1943 and early 1944 was minimal and the P-40, in general could be used for fighter bombing. The stripped high performance version could be turned out quickly and tide the front lines over (defend bases) until more P-38s, P-47s and P-51s could be built and deployed. P-40N-1 was meeting a short-term need while the P-40N-5 and later were for a longer-term goal. Both ordered at the same time.

Because of transit times (and training) the US was planning 3-6 months ahead to cover planes leaving the factories to actually getting into combat.
 
Hi,

My information is that the .42 reduction ratio was standard for most Merlin applications, the .477 being for Merlin Spitfire and a few other types. There are differences in Packard Merlin production, in this context, Packard are credited with a .479 ratio on some engines although I do not know if this is a mistake?

Eng
From my point of view, engine manuals and test reports which contain information for both the engine and the propeller are most reliable sources for such details. For single-stage two-speed Merlin engines, all the technical reports quote 0.42 : 1 (21 : 50) gear ratio for Mosquito and Lancaster engines, Rolls-Royce and Packard production alike. Concerning Hurricane II and P-40F(L), Merlin XX and V-1650-1, reduction gear ratio is 0.477 : 1 (21 : 44). There are contemporary, or later, summary reports which mention reduction gear ratio amongst other things, and sometimes provide wrong numbers.
One can check easily against propeller diameter. If the diameter is significantly above 11 feet, the reduction gear ratio of the single-stage Merlin must be 0.42, "bomber" engine. For Hurricane II and P-40F(L), the right engine is with a gear reduction ratio of 0.477 : 1 (21 : 44) and propeller diameter is up to, or about 11 feet.

Best regards,
Yavor
 
From my point of view, engine manuals and test reports which contain information for both the engine and the propeller are most reliable sources for such details. For single-stage two-speed Merlin engines, all the technical reports quote 0.42 : 1 (21 : 50) gear ratio for Mosquito and Lancaster engines, Rolls-Royce and Packard production alike. Concerning Hurricane II and P-40F(L), Merlin XX and V-1650-1, reduction gear ratio is 0.477 : 1 (21 : 44). There are contemporary, or later, summary reports which mention reduction gear ratio amongst other things, and sometimes provide wrong numbers.
One can check easily against propeller diameter. If the diameter is significantly above 11 feet, the reduction gear ratio of the single-stage Merlin must be 0.42, "bomber" engine. For Hurricane II and P-40F(L), the right engine is with a gear reduction ratio of 0.477 : 1 (21 : 44) and propeller diameter is up to, or about 11 feet.

Best regards,
Yavor

Thanks for interest in this point. Unfortunately, I think that you are incorrect in your point that the Merlin XX was standard with the .477 ratio. It was of course standard with a .42 ratio.

Eng
 
re the reduction gear ratio of the Merlin XX

As far as I can tell from various sources, the Merlin XX as used in the Hurricane Mk II, Defiant Mk II, Beaufighter Mk II used .477:1 reduction ratio, as did the Merlin 29. The Merlin 28 & 31 used a .420:1 reduction rear ratio. This is recorded in the following documents:
Merlin XX____________ NACA Memorandum Report L-565 'Measurement of the Flying Qualities of a Hawker Hurricane Airplane' dated
Merlin 28, 29, 31______Ministry of Aircraft Production R.D.E.1.c. dated 1 November 43
There are many other documents that say the same.

[Edit: The Beaufighter Mk II Type Record lists reduction gear ratio as .420:1 for the Merlin XX as used on the aircraft.]

Here is the relevant page from the Beaufighter Mk II Type Record:

Beaufighter Mk II Type Record pg4.jpg


Below is the Ministry of Aircraft Production document mentioned above
:
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Attachments

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re the reduction gear ratio of the Merlin XX

......
Thanks!
I had the NACA Report at hand and was trying to locate in my archive the MAP document (You posted the document in another thread). This is my reason to use 21 : 44 gear ratio in my engine models for both the Hurricane II and P-40F.
Also, there are following documents. Source is Smithsonian Institution / NASM / Packard V-1650 Merlin 12-Cylinder V Reports Collection

Merlin performance ratings.png

V-1650-1 & 3 performance ratings.png


V-1650-1 MS gear.png
 
FWIW
All of the following info is from original documentation, either Air Ministry, A&AEE/RAE, Rolls Royce, or Packard.

Merlin I-V,VIII,XII,30,32,45-56 all had reduction gear ratios of .477:1
Merlin X was available with a reduction gear ratio of either .420:1 or .477:1 depending on intended application (.420 for bombers, .477 for fighters, but I do not know if any with the .477:1 ratio were used)
Merlin XX,27,29 had a reduction ratio of .477:1 (the Merlin XX was also used with a ratio of .420:1 in the Beaufighter Mk II and Halifax Mk II)
(I have not ben able to find any original documentation on the reduction gear ratios for the Merlin 21,23,25,225)
Merlin 22,24,28,31,33,38,224 all had a reduction gear ratio of .420:1
Merlin 35 had a reduction gear ratio of .471:1 (no idea why the oddball ratio)
Merlin 60,61,62,65,67,68,69,72,73,76,77,85 had a reduction gear ratio of .420:1
Merlin 63,64,66,70,71 had a reduction gear ratio of .477:1
Merlin 266 had a reduction gear ratio of .479:1 (sometimes listed at .477:1)
V-1650-3,-7 had a reduction gear ratio of .479:1 (sometimes listed as .477:1)
V-1650-1 had a reduction gear ratio of .477:1 (see below from a Packard document)
V-1650-1 .477 reductin ratio.png


All of the above should be correct assuming I did not make any typos.

Whoops ! I see YavorD beat me to it with some of the same data. :)

[Edited per my posts #51 and #71 and Geoffrey Sinclair's post #69]
 
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...
(I have not ben able to find any original documentation on the reduction gear ratios for the Merlin 21,23,25,224,225)
...
Concerning Packard Merlin 224 see post #52 above :)

Best regards,
Yavor

P.S. I am still looking about detailed design of a reduction gear listed as 0.479 : 1 for two-stage Merlin engines. The 0.477 : 1 ratio is confirmed as 21 : 44 (tooth numbers).
 
Good to see these recent posts regarding the Merlin reduction ratio's and other details. There are many contradictions and permutations, sometimes development trials would see different combinations being used. I will certainly look further at the Merlin X and XX applications to see if I can find more info.
As regards the Packard .479 ratio, this would seem to be from a 23/48 tooth gearset, but I do not have an original data sheet that details this.

Eng
 
Good to see these recent posts regarding the Merlin reduction ratio's and other details. There are many contradictions and permutations, sometimes development trials would see different combinations being used. I will certainly look further at the Merlin X and XX applications to see if I can find more info.
As regards the Packard .479 ratio, this would seem to be from a 23/48 tooth gearset, but I do not have an original data sheet that details this.

Eng
23 : 48 gear ratio is certainly plausible.
I have picture of the following data plate, exhibit retrieved off the Danish coast from the remains of a Whitley, if I remember correctly.

53119022296_f39a5a9252_o.jpg


53119500243_9af239a8e9_o.jpg
 
So, the answer to the question is no? Except for that point defense role over the factory?
I was hoping the P-40 was involved in the BoB.
 
German airmen "saw" the P-40 in the Battle of Britain, just like RAF pilots "saw" the He 113.

From deciphered messages of 13 August 1940:

"In attack on Portland Curtiss 40 [sic] fighters were encountered. This type definitely known to be equipped with cannons"

"Source saw a document from V.(Z)/LG 1 to ZG 76 which stated: "23 Bf 110 started at 1010/13 and landed at 1205. They carried out armed recce in area Yeovil-Salisbury at a height of 5000–6000 metres. They crossed English coast at 1100/13, 20 km W of Bournemouth. From 1105 to 1130 they engaged between 50 and 100 Spitfire, Hurricane and Curtiss. They claim to have shot down 9 British a/c. Their own losses were stated to be 5 a/c."
 
Can't wait for the first He-113 vs P-40 combat report in the BoB.

Worthy of an AI video ;)
 

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