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Whirlwind was as fast or faster than some early Spitfires at low level.
There has to be a primary reason they were abandoned.
I find the Whirlwind slats were wired shut because they could pop open so hard they damaged the wing. Despite this, it seems to have been a good-handling aircraft albeit with long takeoff and landing distances relative to other RAF planes of the time or relative to available RAF airstrips of the time.
Handling Trials with outboard slats locked
28th May, 1941
...
4. Conclusions and recommendations:
In general it was found that the aeroplane is more pleasant to fly at speeds at which the slots were previously open, and it shows no undesirable characteristics.
... as an immediate cure for those cases reported in which the slats have torn off in flight, it is recommended that the outboard slats be locked in the fully closed position.
Handling trials on a second aeroplane with outboard slats locked
2nd July 1941
...
4. Conclusions:
The aeroplane as received was satisfactory at the stall with flaps and undercarriage either up or down. There was no tendency to spin. With the control column fully aft, either wing would drop at varying rates. From this position a spin might possibly develop but considerable force is necessary to hold the control column back, and recovery is immediate on easing the control column forward.
Sealing all gaps around the slats brings about a considerable improvement in the stall characteristics, and it is, therefore, recommended that this action be taken on those aeroplanes having their slats locked.
If they were as much trouble as some writers have claimed (not just on this forum) the wonder is that they used them as long as they did. Beaufighter might have had a bit more trouble with the overland low level strikes. Whirlwind was as fast or faster than some early Spitfires at low level. It also had good roll response which is an advantage in tree top flying. Not trying to take anything away from the Beaufighter but you are comparing a 10,000lb airplane to an over 20,000lb airplane and while the Beaufighter was certainly versatile and did a number of jobs well, low level strikes in contested air space may not have been the best place for it.
The Whirlwind was stopped because of its engine. I have absolutely no doubt that Rolls Royce could have sorted it eventually to produce a reliable 1,200BHP MAX but why would they? By the time the Peregrine and Whirlwind was stopped most NEW fighters and bombers were being based around big 2000BHP engines.
I would not propose a Beaufighter for low level overland strikes...but how much did the UK need to attack French trains and infrastructure? The UK did need a good night fighter and maritime attack aircraft. Post war history focuses on the best in the field and so the Beaufighter pales in comparison to the Mosquito. That doesnt mean the Beaufighter wasnt a great plane and what was needed at the time...just not the best. As twin engined planes go the Whirlwind couldnt carry RADAR and operator a torpedo or enough fuel to give it more than an interceptors range.
Drifting topic a bit more, but I think it's still relevant, but I suspect the Spitfire Mk.III would give the Whirlwind more a run for its money at low altitude while having a slight edge in critical altitude over the Mk.V as well. (of course, this ignores a hypothetical Whirlwind Mk.II) This came up in comparing the Spitfire III to the 1941 Fw 190 and Typhoon before. (possible clipped wing Spit IIIs also came up)Whirlwind I - +6¼ and +9 boost
Spitfire I - +6¼ and +12 boost
Spitfire V - +9 and +12 boost
Whirlwind +9 boost is my estimate from extrapolating boost and speed curves from A&AEE test.
5 merlins to 2 peregrines is a simplification, but a useful one, it's the 'Spitfires' bit that mucks things up more.Engine rationalisation.
It was all about production output. Kill the Peregrine/Whirlwind and gain five times as many Spitfires. I'm oversimplifying but that's the gist of it.
Because all those 2000 HP engines were unproven while the Peregrine was not AND was better suited to a 'small' heavy fighter than the merlin was. It'd be like Canceling the F5F if the thing had been refined and service ready in 1940 AND the R-2800 was experiencing serious problems getting into mass production ... well a bit more like if the F5F had gotten the originally intended R-1535s. (and if the 1535 developed MUCH more smoothly than the R-2800)The Whirlwind was stopped because of its engine. I have absolutely no doubt that Rolls Royce could have sorted it eventually to produce a reliable 1,200BHP MAX but why would they? By the time the Peregrine and Whirlwind was stopped most NEW fighters and bombers were being based around big 2000BHP engines.
Drifting topic a bit more, but I think it's still relevant, but I suspect the Spitfire Mk.III would give the Whirlwind more a run for its money at low altitude while having a slight edge in critical altitude over the Mk.V as well.
It probably would have been useful enough if produced in smaller numbers: cut down the Lysander orders and up the Whirlwind orders early on and production rate of the latter should have increased substantially.As far as the Lysander goes, it was useless in it's intended role/s. No amount of use in other roles is going to change that. After being a total flop as a combat aircraft (or trying to exist in a combat zone) it saw a lot of use as a trainer, ASR, target tug and 'agent' dropper.
Actually, I may have misspoken earlier regarding the V-1710-33 (C-15). I know the F3R had a dry weight of 1310 lbs, but the -33 was lighter, I just don't know how much. (if it really was about the same weight as the Peregrine, it might have been a good swap to make, though the radiators would need to be enlarged or maximum power restricted -might also run into idle overheating like the P-40)Of course the Peregrine was the lowest power, it was the smallest engine. Another "detail" that isn't important apparently. The Peregrine weighed 1106lbs for a power to weight ratio or 1.25lbs per HP. A Merlin X two speed engine running on 87 octane had a power to weight ratio of 1.26lb per HP. granted is the power to weight ratio of the complete aircraft that counts so the smaller engine is at a disadvantage there.
No one has called me out on it yet, but would my supposition on this matter be accurate given the information available:BTW, I am still waiting for accounts of those Peregrine engine failures that were due to fundamental flaws in in the engine. Either design or quality control.
The good roll response is also an outstanding feature to have on a twin engine fighter given the large wingspan and high outboard mass. (better indicating potential competitive nature vs single engined fighters)If they were as much trouble as some writers have claimed (not just on this forum) the wonder is that they used them as long as they did. Beaufighter might have had a bit more trouble with the overland low level strikes. Whirlwind was as fast or faster than some early Spitfires at low level. It also had good roll response which is an advantage in tree top flying. Not trying to take anything away from the Beaufighter but you are comparing a 10,000lb airplane to an over 20,000lb airplane and while the Beaufighter was certainly versatile and did a number of jobs well, low level strikes in contested air space may not have been the best place for it.
You also lose the exhaust thrust from the inboard stacks AND have to deal with longer/heavier exhaust ducting in that arrangement. (the flat upright+inverted V pair mated at the crank case seems better than what DB tried as well, and I'd think adapting an inverted V to run upright would be simpler than an upright to run inverted -it's getting inverted to work well continuously, and especially on start-up that's tricky, similar for radial engines being both upright and inverted ... and horizontally oriented ... radial and all)The Allison V-3420 (two upright vees) seemed to be OK, but too wide (60 inches) for a single engine fighter.
I'd still argue keeping the peregrine going for the Whirlwind would make sense in this case, especially as a direct competitor to the double-peregrine powered 'single engine' fighters. (ie if the Whirlwind Mk.II beats the Tornado/Typhoon in performance and reliability, it seems an obvious win for Westland) The double peregrine would at very least be good for the Warwick in place of the imported R-2800s, maybe a few other designs otherwise stunted by delays in the other 2000 hp class engines. (maybe even save the Manchester ... I wonder how fast a 2000 hp engined Manchester Mk.II might manage)Since I killed the Sabre, I could have Napier build the 24 cylinder 'double Peregrine' for aircraft, and continue its development. And while the V-12 Peregrine was too small for aircraft use, an un-supercharged version would have been a good fit for tanks. Rover UK or Ford USA (in place of their in-house designed GAA).
Things would change a bit if you get into the +14 and +16 lbs boost the Hurricane II was eventually rated for. Fw 190 pressures might have forced up-rated WEP sooner on the Spit III had it entered service.According to (what looks like) an RAE chart, a Spitfire III has about an 8mph advantage over a Spitfire V under 9,000 feet. The higher critical altitude is there, but the Spitfire V has a healthy advantage between 12,000 and 20,000 feet (28 mph at the Spit V critical alt at +12 boost).
Things would probably have changed at the end of 1942 - but keep in mind the Spitfire III could only use +12 boost in low gear (under 12,000 feet approx.), while the Spitfire V could start using it under 20,000 feet.
Hi Greyman,
Can you post where you found those quotes. Seems like it would be an interesting read.
Thanks.
Thanks for the info.
I find the Whirlwind to be a tough nut to crack. Had it been more successful, I'm sure it would be all over the web and my reference books about WWII. As a sort of obscure aircraft, the info is sketchy at best,