Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
I saw you post above Shortround and find the reasoning sound. We still would have the maintnenace and overhaul chain for the Spirfires, etc. that had large numbers made, but your idea of 50 fighters for one squadrom for 6 months ain't bad at all. If that was the case, the Whirlwind did OK to stay solid for about 2 years with only 116 odd aircraft. I do NOT know if they sortied at the same rate as other fighters or were sort of lightly used. Anything I say along those lines would be conjecture.
Whirlwind take off figures (max weight)
early test +6.75 boost (10,072 lb)
Take-off run: 375 yards
Distance from rest to clear 50 foot screen: 710 yards
later test +9 boost (10,263 lb)
Take-off run: 325 yards
Distance from rest to clear 50 foot screen: 550 yards
I haven't found the distance yet for the P-47D ...
... they must have been very busy guys to get fields ready for the Thunderbolt!
I'm fully aware there are people, in this world, who are completely devoid of a sense of humour; that's for them to live with, not for me to tiptoe around their sensibilities.It is statements like this that raise the hackles of "defenders of the faith,".
It means precisely that; Rolls-Royce said that the Peregrine, as it stood, could not run on 100 octane on a regular basis. The engine could run on 87 octane, at around 6 psi, but, on 100 octane, if 9 psi was used, every instance had to be noted in the engine's logbook.What is meant by "Peregrine could not run on 100 octane on a regular basis (whatever the Whirlwind Pilot's Notes say.)"
What would be the point? Why waste precious 100 octane, when you can get the same results with 87?Does that mean that you could not put 100 octane fuel in the tanks and fly it for dozens of hours while never exceeding 6lbs boost
Can't see why; if use of 100 octane, at its higher boost, caused damage, the Air Ministry are hardly likely to look favourably on a flood of damaged engines returning to Rolls-Royce for repair.The Phrase uprating the engine to take 100 octane 100% of the time is also rather confusing.
Rather shows the wisdom of concentrating on the Merlin, instead of the Peregrine, doesn't it?....Early Merlins could only use the extra power/boost that 100 octane fuel allowed for brief periods of time and in emergencies yet seemed to run for hundreds of hours on 100 octane without self destructing.
Then why keep on about how it should have been retained?Now maybe the Peregrine was fatally flawed (or had multiple flaws) that prevented the use of even 9lb boost let alone 12lbs. Or maybe it needed a new crank, rods, crankcase, cylinder blocks, etc to get to 16-18lbs of boost. I have no idea.
Maybe the authors should spend time looking at the files held in the National Archives and by the Rolls-Royce Heritage TrustEach engine is different but if you could run Bristol Mercury engines at 9lb of boost for short periods there must have been something really wrong with Peregrine if it could not. An strangely, what ever this flaw or collection of flaws was, it never gets spelled out or listed in commonly available materials (books, magazine articles, internet sites).
Can't see why; if use of 100 octane, at its higher boost, caused damage, the Air Ministry are hardly likely to look favourably on a flood of damaged engines returning to Rolls-Royce for repair.
You either believe Rolls-Royce, or you don't.
The Fury came too late to be useful in WWII and the Tempest itself was only useful late war. Compared to the P-38 (which I assume you meant rather than P-39) the Whirlwind had MANY fewer teething problems and with the level of support the P-38 got, would have been a highly competitive fighter far sooner than that American twin AND without the same issues of being much larger an dheavier than single engine counterparts or having poor roll response without boosted ailerons. (IMO the P-38 should have gotten spring tab boosted ailerons from the start like the F4U -no hydraulics needed- ... a stick might have offered better response and leverage than that yolk too)Of course they preferred the Typhoon. A single engined fighter with 2000BHP v a twin engined fighter with 1,600BHP. And eventually they were correct, the Sea Fury was the ultimate progression of the Typhoon/Tempest/Fury as up there with the best of piston engined fighters. Any theoretical progression of a peregrine twin fighter would be eaten by a Tempest or Fury.
I cannot think of an example of a twin fighter out performing a single in the front line. There is much debate here about the P 39 .....but in Europe it was not a success.
The Griffon and Merlin deserved the most of RR's development attention for sure and an earlier Griffon would have been more useful than the Peregrine BUT there's still a great deal of engineering commonality between all three engines so it's not so clear if canceling any one earlier or developing one more aggressively earlier would have helped. The Vulture shared less in common design wise and would be a more rational design to drop early on.The Sabre was retired as soon as the war ended but the Spitfire and the Griffon served for years after
Had the Whirlwind been deployed more aggressively sooner, that should have been exposed sooner as well (enough to get worked into the Mk.II I'd think). As it stood, it might have made sense to use a locking mechanism that could be applied and removed depending on the mission profile. Fighter-bomber loads would seem more worth the risk for the improved take-off run, while fighter patrol and interception duties would make more sense to keep wired shut. (if they had more planes, having some wired shut and others left unlocked would probably be easier)The problems with the slats were only identified much later, after the type had been operational for some time. I imagine it was a case of pushing things a bit farther in combat than in initial testing.
For example, while testing the Whirlwind, the A&AEE listed a limiting dive speed of 420 mph IAS. The official Pilot's Notes list a maximum diving speed of 400 mph IAS.
The CO of 263 Squadron, however, said they had dived them to 460 mph IAS.
I suspect RR might have been using excessive caution with the Peregrine due to the very limited number of spares and spare parts, somewhat like was discussed for the V-1710 recently. (though more legitimately extreme)Now maybe the Peregrine was fatally flawed (or had multiple flaws) that prevented the use of even 9lb boost let alone 12lbs. Or maybe it needed a new crank, rods, crankcase, cylinder blocks,etc to get to 16-18lbs of boost. I have no idea.
But there is a world of difference between cruising at 7-10lbs of boost (running at 100 octane levels) 100% of the time and cruising at 2-4lbs boost and using the 7-12lbs boost for take-off and emergencies.
The exact same thing is true of the V-1710 at the time, both the -39 and especially the older -33 (more contemporary with the Merlin III and Peregrine). They required 100/100 octane fuel, but ran pretty much entirely in envelopes 87 octane likely would have been fine with the possible exception of running extremely lean. (most 87 octane fuel was much closer to 87/100 than 87/87) American 100 octane was of course chemically very different from British mixtures with almost no aromatics and considerably less lead.Now before I get accused of saying Rolls Royce was lying, IF Rolls Royce was saying that in order to make 100% use of the potential of 100 octane fuel then they could very well have been right. To make full use of 100 octane would require the engine to operate at 16-18lbs of boost and would require quite possibly a new supercharger
Yes, but I'm trying to discern the dry weight of the early-war (and pre-war) C-series engine like the P-40B/C and XP-38 used. The V-1710-39 (F3R) manual lists its dry weight at 1310 lbs, I'm sure later engines gained more weight from various strengthening (aside from added weight from larger radiators and oil+coolant header tanks) but I'm looking for the EARLIER engines. Most simplified museum sites (including the NASM) list the standard generic vague V-1710 weight that's almost certainly inaccurate for the V-1710-33 (C-15). I'm fairly certain the C-15 is significantly lighter than the F3R or Merlin III and XII, but I'm just not sure on exactly how much.Hi Kool Kitty,
You can reckon the V-1710 at 1,480 pounds. When we ewere building them, they were all just under 1,500 pounds with starter before adding oil for run -in. Of course, we had a run-in platform that was a Ford F-350 truck with engine mlont, radiator, oil tanka dn pump, etc. I am not sure of the all-up weight of an Allison V-1710 with radiator and oil tank ... depends on the radiator and oil tank.
The V-1710-33 was actually pretty favorable performance/size/weight wise to the Merlin III, but the Merlin saw both more aggressive boost increases and general abuse of the engine along with much more attention to the supercharger with the 2-speed version of the older supercharger to the vastly improved Merlin XX and 45/50 series one to the High alt 46 to the 2-stage liquid intercooled one that had a lot of advances even Turbo'd Allisons lacked. (GE was behind in compressor efficiency and intercooler design while RR was at the cutting edge -they benefitted from RR compressor experience for the I-16 and I-40 jets too)My thoughts were that the Allison ws a GREAT engine down low but suffered without the turbo when things got higher than 15 - 16,000 feet ... exactly the weakness the Peregrine had. So ... the turbo would address the altitude issue. The resulting aircraft would probably have been faster than the Peregrine-powered bird but, without the turbos, would probably start to suffer in the mid-teens verus a 2-stage S/C day fighter.
Agreed. The biggest problem with the Whirlwind was it was ordered in too small numbers with production priority too low from the start. More Whirlwind orders means more peregrine orders, more spare engines AND airframes to work with, more spare parts, more potential canibalization of parts even if production ceased, more planes flying sooner and more in-service testing to catch faults/flaws earlier, etc, etc.I saw your post above Shortround and find the reasoning sound. We still would have the maintnenace and overhaul chain for the Spirfires, etc. that had large numbers made, but your idea of 50 fighters for one squadrom for 6 months ain't bad at all. If that was the case, the Whirlwind did OK to stay solid for about 2 years with only 116 odd aircraft. I do NOT know if they sortied at the same rate as other fighters or were sort of lightly used. Anything I say along those lines would be conjecture.