Echelon formation

greybeard · Jun 22, 2025

I think to have understood that in the famous schwarm or finger four formation number two covered the leader and number four covered number three (or element leader). In Vic formation both wingmen covered the leader.
But there was also echelon formation and I wonder in this case who covered who. A similar question could be posed for V formation. Please, does someone have some info?

BiffF15 · Jun 22, 2025

greybeard said:
I think to have understood that in the famous schwarm or finger four formation number two covered the leader and number four covered number three (or element leader). In Vic formation both wingmen covered the leader.
But there was also echelon formation and I wonder in this case who covered who. A similar question could be posed for V formation. Please, does someone have some info?

Greybeard,

In any formation you have a lead aircraft and wingmen. If greater than two guys there will be an element lead. In a flight of two, an echelon is the default and the wingman covers the lead aircraft unless there is a role swap (think leads guns jammed and shooting needs to occur). In a flight of four the echelon is more an administrative type formation unless doing air to ground and you are lining up to roll in on a target in a low threat environment.

Cheers,
Biff

Thumpalumpacus · Jun 23, 2025

My understanding is that in echelon, #s 1 & 3 are element leads, and #s 2 & 4 are the wingmen, each attached to their respective element leads. If possible you keep the flight together. If separated, 1 & 2 marry up, as do 3 & 4. The real difference is that echelon is diagonal down only one side, while in finger-four, the #2 is flying on the port quarter of the leader.

Echelon:
1
x2
xx3
xxx4

Finger-four:

x1
2x
xx3
xxx4

greybeard · Jun 23, 2025

BiffF15 said:
In a flight of four the echelon is more an administrative type formation...

Thanks guys for your prompt replies. If I understood correctly, in echelon formation remain liaisons of finger four, they are just deployed in a different manner in flight. So (since I was thinking at echelons with more than four elements) each wingman should cover the odd number closer before him...
Just curious about meaning of "administrative" type formation.

Greg Boeser · Jun 24, 2025

Vee formation and Vic formation are the same thing. A leader with his two wingmen stepped back to the right and left.
Other flight configurations are line abreast, with all aircraft in a straight line left to right, and line astern, where each subordinate plane in the flight flies directly behind in a sort of daisy chain.

GrauGeist · Jun 24, 2025

A Schwarm was a flight of two "Rottes".

The Schwarm leader was foremost with his wingman to port.
To the leader's starboard, was the "element leader" (or secondary Rotte leader) and to the element leader's starboard, was his wingman.

A Schwarm was four aircraft, a Rotte was two. But formed up, appeared as an offset "V" from above (or below).

pinehilljoe · Jun 24, 2025

GrauGeist said:
A Schwarm was a flight of two "Rottes".

The Schwarm leader was foremost with his wingman to port.
To the leader's starboard, was the "element leader" (or secondary Rotte leader) and to the element leader's starboard, was his wingman.

A Schwarm was four aircraft, a Rotte was two. But formed up, appeared as an offset "V" from above (or below).

I thought the Schwarm and Rottes were developed by Mölders and became the Finger Four adopted by many air forces during the War.

GrauGeist · Jun 24, 2025

pinehilljoe said:
I thought the Schwarm and Rottes were developed by Mölders and became the Finger Four adopted by many air forces during the War.

Möeders and Lützow developed the Schwarm concept after finding the traditional Kette (three ship formation) was inadequate for aerial combat.

As I mentioned above, a Schwarm was comprised of two flights (Rotte).

Other air forces adopted the four ship formation (and called it finger four, etc) after the Battle of Britain.

BiffF15 · Jun 25, 2025

greybeard said:
Thanks guys for your prompt replies. If I understood correctly, in echelon formation remain liaisons of finger four, they are just deployed in a different manner in flight. So (since I was thinking at echelons with more than four elements) each wingman should cover the odd number closer before him...
Just curious about meaning of "administrative" type formation.

GB,

There are tactical and administrative formations. We would enter the pattern in echelon to allow 2-4 to easily follow 1 in the pattern. This formation, ie echelon was used by air to ground guys when setting up for bomb runs in a low threat environment.

Finger four (close / fingertip) or route is used for weather penetration or cruising.

Tactical can be spread out even more to allow aggressive maneuvering without immediate fear of colliding with a flight member.

Cheers,
Biff

GregP · Jun 25, 2025

Echelon formation is just four aircraft in a line pointing aft at about 45°, either left or right. There's nopthing complicated about it.

Nevermind the diagram above is helicopters, it's the same for fixed-wing aircraft with different distances between aircraft.

Echelon formation

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greybeard

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BiffF15

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Thumpalumpacus

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greybeard

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Greg Boeser

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GrauGeist

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pinehilljoe

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GrauGeist

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BiffF15

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GregP

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