Howard Gibson
Senior Airman
Is there a reference out there?
The Schwarm, or Finger Four Formation
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Is there a reference out there?
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
When in formation, the Schwarm was offset height-wise to a degree.
It could vary, but rarely would the flight be perfectly even (on a horizontal plane).
It could vary, but rarely would the flight be perfectly even (on a horizontal plane).
From what I understood about it, firstly it was a formation of 4, with two pairs. Secondly it was a much looser formation, so they could spend more time looking around because they werent concerned with hitting each other. From what I understand about formation flying you must not lose your "lead", from the diagram provided by Rochie No 1 leads the formation no 2 is his wingman. No 3 follows the leader of the formation and No 4 is No3s wing man following him. So long as they all follow their respective leader it isnt difficult, the leader leads and everyone else only has one person to keep station with.
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Howard Gibson
Senior Airman
From what I understand, and from Rochie's diagram, we can see that it is a good idea for the aircraft to fly at different altitudes. If they all turned together, maintaining formation, the guy on the inside would stall out, and the guy on the outside would have to massively increase speed, not possible if they are flying fast.
I understand my top view. I am trying to sort out my front view. Note the drafting projections.
Thanks.
I understand my top view. I am trying to sort out my front view. Note the drafting projections.
Thanks.
If you take the British vic formation, with a philosophy of flying as close together as possible, then expand it into a squadron or a big wing, no one can move anywhere, Bader liked his big wing, the guys behind it described it as complete chaos when things started to happen.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
In looking at Rochie's diagram, you'll find that even if the Schwarm was flying level in concert, the first to turn will pass over the flight, repeated by the next to turn, then the third.
So there had to be a relative order to their horizontal position, at least prior to their course change.
Rochie's picture is correct. Of note is number 2 turns first, followed by 1, then 3 and finally 4. This can be done comm out (without need to talk on radio or flick the mic switch) by a wing flash from 1. The default assumption is the turn will be 90 degrees. If it's less than that, 1 will wing rock, or pretend to momentarily turn into his wingman (2 or 3) to cause them to roll out on his approximate desired heading. If it's more than 90 the assumption is it's a 180 degree turn then everyone goes at the same time.
Howard Gibson there probably was some "stacking" of the various members of the flight. Wingman today, if in a tactical visual formation, are encouraged to stack such that it's easy for them to maintain visual as that is high on their responsibility list. There are other reasons for why you stack in a particular way, but are beyond this conversation. Also the Schwarm / Division / 4 ship flight lead should have more than enough SA (situational awareness) and training to not be so slow he will stall someone, or so fast guys can't stay in position.
While turning a 4 ship the members only have deconflict enough so as to not hit or pass so close as to scare or annoy your flight mate.
Pbhen is correct in that a flight of four is also two flights of two. The latter comes into play when the fight starts and the two elements split to handle problems. Number 2 follows 1, and 4 follows 3. Number 1 owns everyone, but 3 is allowed to make tactical decisions or take over the flight should he be directed or 1 goes home (mechanical) or gets kill removed.
Graus picture of the Bf-109s is an administrative formation. They would be more spread out in combat, or echeloned to one side if entering the pattern.
Cheers,
Biff
Howard Gibson there probably was some "stacking" of the various members of the flight. Wingman today, if in a tactical visual formation, are encouraged to stack such that it's easy for them to maintain visual as that is high on their responsibility list. There are other reasons for why you stack in a particular way, but are beyond this conversation. Also the Schwarm / Division / 4 ship flight lead should have more than enough SA (situational awareness) and training to not be so slow he will stall someone, or so fast guys can't stay in position.
While turning a 4 ship the members only have deconflict enough so as to not hit or pass so close as to scare or annoy your flight mate.
Pbhen is correct in that a flight of four is also two flights of two. The latter comes into play when the fight starts and the two elements split to handle problems. Number 2 follows 1, and 4 follows 3. Number 1 owns everyone, but 3 is allowed to make tactical decisions or take over the flight should he be directed or 1 goes home (mechanical) or gets kill removed.
Graus picture of the Bf-109s is an administrative formation. They would be more spread out in combat, or echeloned to one side if entering the pattern.
Cheers,
Biff
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Great info Biff!
And a flight of two was called a "Rotte" and two "Rottes" was a "Schwarm".
And a flight of two was called a "Rotte" and two "Rottes" was a "Schwarm".
I've never seen a formation turn like that diagram, but have no knowledge of German practices.
A formation moves as one unit - that is a turn doesn't result in a change of position.
Aircraft on the outside of a turn have a larger turn radius, and higher resulting speed, and aircraft on the inside have a lower airspeed. It is the leaders responsibility to ensure that the speed and radius of turn enables everyone to turn safely.
Being number 4 on the inside of a tight turn is no fun at all: you have to descend as the formation banks, and slow down so that you don't overshoot your lead. But, it's better than an echelon turn.
The finger four formation is essentially two pairs, 1&2, and 3&4, enabling them to break off and fight as two pairs.
The attached clip shows a few turns, you'll have to excuse my crap flying... We were flying a diamond, but its the same for numbers 1-3
A formation moves as one unit - that is a turn doesn't result in a change of position.
Aircraft on the outside of a turn have a larger turn radius, and higher resulting speed, and aircraft on the inside have a lower airspeed. It is the leaders responsibility to ensure that the speed and radius of turn enables everyone to turn safely.
Being number 4 on the inside of a tight turn is no fun at all: you have to descend as the formation banks, and slow down so that you don't overshoot your lead. But, it's better than an echelon turn.
The finger four formation is essentially two pairs, 1&2, and 3&4, enabling them to break off and fight as two pairs.
The attached clip shows a few turns, you'll have to excuse my crap flying... We were flying a diamond, but its the same for numbers 1-3
Correct. I reverted or went native and slipped into USAF speak. The USN calls a 2 / 4 a section / division. While I have fought Luftwaffe Phantoms, Tornadoes, and Fulcrums, I did NOT sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night!
Cheers,
Biff
GumbyK,
The diagram formation turn is how it's done with a four ship, whether in a tactical environment or combat. The Luftwaffe / Germans invented it, and it has stood the test of time due to its usefulness and practicality in both the previously mentioned environs. It is tough at first to get the hang of, as the difficult thing is to know when to turn (the turn itself is done at a given bank / airspeed (standardized for all players). I learned it in T-38s at pilot training, and the instructors there weren't good at explaining it as most had not done it operationally or learned it from someone else who had never done it outside of the training environment. Getting someone to properly explain how to recognize when to turn makes a huge difference. I remember the instructor at F15 school who "splained" it to me.
You second comment must apply to what ever type of formation flying you are doing. It doesn't apply to military flying. An example is you are RTB and the formation is set up with 2 on one side and 3 / 4 on the other (as in Grau's Me-109 picture above). You need to enter the pattern (360 overhead in civilian speak), overhead / pattern in USAF terms, or the Break in USN/USMC lingo. The flight needs to be echelon for the break, so you need to have everyone on the same side. You could have them on the correct side and have tower switch runways on you (Nellis AFB standard) and you have to switch everyone over to the opposite side to be set up for the break / pitchout.
At pilot training our formation limits were 90' of bank with all four of us (in fingertip). The T38 was a bit underpowered for that, but you got used to it (we didn't do many four ship formation rides, maybe 5-10). Add weather and it gets more sporty. Add night and it's even more sporty.
Cheers,
Biff
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Howard Gibson
Senior Airman
Depends on what you are doing and where you are doing it. Cross country everyone is with 100' of level (for Air Traffic Control). In the airspace but not fighting, a little bit of stack just to maintain visual on everyone. In combat or getting ready to cross the line, more stack if conditions permit (if you are stacked above the strikers you may not have much altitude, however since you will be out front once you push you can stack at will. If you are abeam another 4 ship or two, then 2 & 4 might be directed where to stack so as not to cause a conflict with the wingmen in the adjacent flight.Thanks.
So what are the elevations in the front view?
I think we're essentially saying the same thing here. In the video I posted, we moved to echelon left before joining, you can't see it as I was in the #3 position, and we had briefed moving #2 and #4 as a unit due to limited time and airspace. Essentially I changed to #2 in echelon for the break.
It's interesting, as most of our training has come from ex RNZAF instructors, and passing over the formation is frowned upon, even during formation changes, as it cuts off an escape path, and you lose sight of the formation.
GumbyK,
My apologies. I wasn't looking at it from your perspective. Howards picture of the 4 ship executing a turn is done in a "tactical" formation, not from an "administrative" one. My perspective was all from the tactical perspective. When you are in a "closer formation", finger tip, route (1-2 ship widths apart) or spread (2-3k apart) you don't do those turns. Passing over from a tactical is okay, passing over from an administrative is not. Your instructors are correct (teaching the same thing I was taught). The video is about 2 seconds long when I hit play.
Cheers,
Biff
Thanks, I wasn't aware that there was a difference between administrative and tactical. We all live and learn.
You may have missed it on another thread, but what's the operational reasoning for formation landings? I've done one, but generally we don't do them (tailwheel aircraft - the potential for groundlooping doesn't go well with being close to another aircraft). But I can't think of a reason to do them from a tactical view.
They are done for density and safety: (your base might be under IFR / IMC and everyone coming down an instrument approach but not enough gas so you double up to get more guys on the ground in a shorter time) or (your wingman loses electrics, his attitude indicator/s, battle damage, the list goes on). They weren't fun in the T38, but were cake in the Eagle.
Cheers,
Biff
Thanks, my understanding was that the wingman broke off before landing in the case of escorting a damaged aircraft.
We didn't do formation approaches to cable engagements, but had an IP who did just that in Iceland. His wingman had some problem where he was unable to fly the approach (in a blowing snow storm at Keflavik-nearest divert is 800+ miles away in Scotland). Lead flies the approach, wingman flies formation with his hook down, lead does a formation landing to a touch and go. I brought a guy back with both his primary and backup attitude platforms out. Neither of us had gas for a divert, and I didn't do a form landing due to wet runways (prohibited manuever). In retrospect I should have. Landed pretty thin on gas. I brought a guy back in the OV-10 who had smoke in the cockpit (shut down all electrics). I got him configured above the weather (lots of pitch changes going on while dropping gear / flaps), then brought him down to the flare through the weather. It wasn't even mentioned at the weekly pilot meeting it was such a non event. In a previous thread there was a pic of a P47 covered in oil. There was the perfect set up for doing a form approach or landing. Guy could slide his canopy back but stay behind it vice sticking his head out into the oil caked slipstream.
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