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A A.G. Williams Fighter escorts requiring vastly less rounds to down an enemy plane isn't hugely surprising. I'd be a bit cautious about reading too much into that comparison though. I've heard that shipboard AA didn't down that many enemy aircraft but did help make their attacks less effective. I wonder if bomber defensive armament might have offered similar benefits by placing additional stress on attacking fighter pilots, thus reducing the opportunities for easy shots.
'Cept they couldn't see the incoming bullets. That's based on the problem with light AAA that Friedman cites in Naval Anti-Aircraft Guns & Gunnery. The body of the projectile blocks with flare, which barely extends past the base of the projectile.Yes, that's a fair point. German fighters were distracted by coming under fire from bombers, especially if they could see the incoming bullets - which is why tracer ammo was especially popular among US bomber crews. There was even a special loading for bomber guns consisting of extra-bright tracers to take advantage of this.
Not so, it seems. The History of Modern US Small Arms Ammunition, Volume II, contains a detailed description of the development of extra-bright .50 tracer known as the "Headlight". The whole concept of the design was to boost the visibility of the tracer from the front in order to distract the German fighter pilots. Initial work involved holes drilled into the side of the tracer compartment but experimentation showed that this was not necessary, the right quantity of the right tracer material was three times more brilliant than a standard tracer. They eventually selected the T1E1 bullet design, which "was more readily visible, especially from the front" and this was standardised as the M21. During 1943-44 over 7 million rounds were manufactured.'Cept they couldn't see the incoming bullets. That's based on the problem with light AAA that Friedman cites in Naval Anti-Aircraft Guns & Gunnery. The body of the projectile blocks with flare, which barely extends past the base of the projectile.
I enjoyed watching that yesterday. I got a kick out of Mr. Parshall's not putting up with much "what-iffery".
-There was a either a late war or, more probably, early post-war analysis by the USAAF that primarily went into turret/armament design. I came across it when looking for information on the "Cheyenne" tail gun position of later B-17s. I believe that there was also a discussion of handheld guns, particularly chin (B-17) and waist, going into the differences between B-17/24, B-25 and B-26. I think I was disappointed that there was no comparison to other, particularly USN PB4Y, turrets and/or gun positions.Somewhere on the internet . . . there is a US/UK government sponsored analysis that talks about the effectiveness of the defensive weapons, the different formations used, the different patterns of attack used, day vs night, etc. I do not know if I downloaded it, I will see if I did or if I can find it.
I do not remember all it talked about, but some of what I remember is:
Powered gun turrets were significantly more effective than free-swinging guns. The only location unpowered defensive weapons were effective was in the tail.
Prior to the introduction of the GGS: The .50 cal had a higher probability of shooting down or seriously damaging a Luftwaffe fighter attacking a bomber, if it scored a hit. However, the multiple gun .303 cal turrets, coupled with their higher rates of fire and increased ammunition loads, had a higher chance of scoring a hit. Exactly how effective the .50 cal was vs multiple .303 was difficult to determine as there was not enough specific information.
After the introduction of the GGS: It was clear that the .50 cal became the superior armament for the turrets, with the understanding that for future bombers the 20mm would be a significant improvement over the .50 cal.
In terms of the US vs the UK concepts as to the type of installation: It was found that the UK turrets, for the most part, were superior in terms of reliability to the US turrets. They talked about a number of items in the reliability, maintainability, service life, etc. The only 3 things I remember are:
1. US electric powered turret drives needed to be significantly improved. It was found on operations that a common complaint was the US electric turrets could become inoperative - often before reaching the target area - due to the weather conditions and overuse by the operator when scanning for bogies.
2. While the UK turrets (in particular the hydraulic drive types, whether in US or UK service) were significantly more reliable than the US turrets, the hydraulic type had the disadvantage of sometimes being the source of fires due to the hydraulic fluid being flammable.
3. The electric drive was preferred for future installation, because of weight and simplicity, if the reliability of the electric drive systems could be improved sufficiently.
Though it was clear that the larger caliber weapons were the best choice for future defensive systems, particular if GGS and radar aided FC systems were employed, the supply of sufficient ammunition was more problematic. A reference was made to US bomber crew complaints of running out of ammunition before the attacks were over, sometimes before reaching the target. Early-campaign, it was the tail gun position that usually ran into this situation, but the other turret positions also encountered this problem. Late-campaign - in the bombers that had increased ammunition supply for the tail positions - the situation of ammunition shortage was spread about evenly among the tail, top, and bottom positions. The nose turret was least likely to run out of ammunition.
The UK bombers, particularly the types with the feed track systems supplying ammunition to the tail from large bins in the center fuselage, seldom ran out of ammunition, and later in the campaign the tail turret ammunition was sometimes reduced or carried in a manner that would allow resupply of other turrets. (Note that the above applied to daytime UK operations. Night operations were different enough that they were included in a separate section comparing the day vs night operations.)
The introduction of the nose gun turret on the B-17 and B-24 had almost no effect on the attack methods used by the Luftwaffe, re the number of head-on attacks vs tail attacks only changed by ~2%, from ~43% head-on to about 41% (IIRC). Losses remained essentially the same for the Luftwaffe, as did the number of bombers shot down. This data was from Luftwaffe records and post-war debriefs of Luftwaffe personnel.
I remember reading a Spitfire pilots account of passing a USAAF bomber formation, he was on "withdrawal" to escort stragglers, so passing the box to get to the rear of it. The whole formation is distracting, he said he was well aware that there were 1,000 men with heavy machine guns looking at him and was glad he was on their side, the thought of attacking it was very intimidating. LW pilots knew they could be fired on because they knew the planes they were attacking. Whether by seeing gun flashes from the guns, smoke trails or light from the incendiary rounds they knew they were going into defensive fire. Experienced hands at it could tell them that usually you dont get hit, but I think that is a psychological hurdle that needs to be jumped.Yes, that's a fair point. German fighters were distracted by coming under fire from bombers, especially if they could see the incoming bullets - which is why tracer ammo was especially popular among US bomber crews. There was even a special loading for bomber guns consisting of extra-bright tracers to take advantage of this.
I would just throw in the Mosquito as a point of discussion. De Havilland's plan was for an unarmed bomber using speed for its defensive capability. The Air Ministry (UK) wanted an armed bomber and proposed a turret in the mid upper position just aft of the cockpit, similar to the B-P Defiant set up. Test with a mock up were a disaster, having a serious effect on both speed and handling. In the end, the Series I and II Mk IV, were unarmed and it was the ground speed of the aircraft which kept it out of harm so far as losses to enemy aircraft were concerned. The problem with all bombers is they need to run straight and level (pretty much) to hit the target leaving them vulnerable to AA & fighter attack. these were where the greatest losses occurred. The Fighter/Bomber version had one of the best defensive armament set-ups with the 4 x .303 Browning and 4 x 20mm Hispano MG's. The Rockets were a useful addition to the ground strike/ coastal shipping abilities of the aircraft.
Powered gun turrets were significantly more effective than free-swinging guns. The only location unpowered defensive weapons were effective was in the tail.
De Havilland's plan was for an unarmed bomber using speed for its defensive capability. The Air Ministry (UK) wanted an armed bomber and proposed a turret in the mid upper position just aft of the cockpit, similar to the B-P Defiant set up. Test with a mock up were a disaster, having a serious effect on both speed and handling.
AFAIK it was just a day fighter, for the brief period when turret fighters were in vogue, which was before they were used.Did someone envisage a Mosquito "turreted night fighter" with a dorsal weapon? Defiant 2.0 as it were?
Did someone envisage a Mosquito "turreted night fighter" with a dorsal weapon? Defiant 2.0 as it were?
I was just about to quote Macmillan "events dear boy, events"Of course, the reason why F.18/40 amended with turret armament was never fulfilled was because of the excellent performance of the fixed gun night fighter Mosquito.
I was just about to quote Macmillan "events dear boy, events"
The Beaufighter entered service as a night fighter in September 1940, just at the start of the night time Blitz. Very early operations were carried out without radar, relying on ground control, searchlights and luck to find their opponents, a very difficult task. Even so, the Beaufighter achieved its first kill on 25 October 1940, without radar.
The first radar kill was achieved on 19/20 November 1940, by F.Lt John Cunningham of No. 604 Squadron. Cunningham would become the best known British night fighter pilot of the war, being given the nickname "Cat's Eyes" Cunningham after attempts to explain his prowess at a time when radar was a top secret.