Effectiveness of the P-38 (2 Viewers)

[Thumpalumpacus]

The P-38 was also simply more expensive per unit, and required more training due to two engines. Great airplane all the same.

 

[Steamed_Banana]

So last month I posted some operational history of the P-38 units in North Africa in July and August 1943, this is some operational history from January and early February 1943, for contrast:

(Disclaimer, not trying to prove anything, just showing the data, which I interpret as slightly worse for the Allies in general and P-38 units in particular than by the mid-year)

4 Jan 1943 – P-40Fs from 33rd​ FG escorting A-20s over Fondouk, intercepted by Bf 109s from JG 53. 6 Ju 88s escorted by more Bf 109s from JG 53 ran into a group of B-26s which were waiting for rendezvous with 33rd​ FG P-40Fs, the B-26s seem to have fended off the fighters without losses, the 33rd FG P-40s later arrived and attacked the Ju 88s.

Losses - 3 x P-40F (1 KiA) and 2 A-20s (2 KiA) shot down by Bf 109s from JG 53 and FW 190s from JG 2 / 1 B109 shot down by B-17 gunners, 2 x Ju 88s crash landed after combat with P-40s.

8 Jan 1943 – All three P-38 FGs plus 33rd​ FG (P-40F) engaged Germans over Gabes, Porto Farima, and Kairouan. (This was the worst single day for the P-38s I was able to find in the book)

Losses: 7 x P-38F shot down, 3 crash landed, 2 heavily damaged (from 1st​, 14th​ and 82nd​ FG) 1 x F-4A (recon P-38) from 3rd​ Photo Gr shot down, 2 Spitfire V from 111 and 154 Sqn shot down / 1 x Fw 190A-4 shot down ('by P-40' – probably 33rd​ FG which was in action and made several claims), 1 x Bf 109G-1 'force-landed after combat', 1 x MC 202 'force landed after combat' (probably with Spitfires). The claims in this case were 12 claims from JG 2 (Fw 190) and 2 by JG 51 (Bf 109G or F) and 1 by 95 Sq (MC 202) for a Spitfire.

12 Jan 1943 – P-38s from 1st​ FG did a fighter sweep over the Gulf of Gabes, and two P-40Fs from the 33rd​ FG intercepted a raid by 7 Ju 88s escorted by Bf 109s against the airfield at Thelepte, another sqn from 33rd​ FG joining the action.

Losses: 1 x P38F (pilot KiA) shot down by Bf 109 / 2 x Bf 109G-2 "shot down in combat P-40s Thelepte" 1 PoW from JG 77 1 MiA from JG 51, 3 x Ju 88 shot down 1 crash landed.

14 Jan 1943 – Allied air base at Thelepte was raided again, intercepted initially by four P-40F from the Free French GC II/5 claiming 2 Bf 109, then the same four aircraft, low on fuel, engaged 4 Fw 190A and 6 Bf 109 carrying bombs, and a squadron of P-40Fs from 33rd​ FG was also landing at this time and was attacked, one being shot down. Luftwaffe came back in the afternoon and French and US P-40Fs scrambled again and engaged the bombers, shooting down several Ju 88s. Meanwhle 14th​ FG P-38s escorted B-25s to Tunis and Faviganna islands, and 82nd​ FG P-38s escorted B-26s against bridges in the Oued el Akarrit, engaging with Bf 109s. Meanwhile 13 P-39s from 81st​ FG and 11 more from 350th​ FG were being ferried from England (!!) but got lost and 11 force landed at Lisbon. The 350th​ FG commander and his wingman made it to Africa.

Losses: 4 x P-38F and G shot down, 1 x P-40F from 33rd​ FG, 2 P-40F from Free French GC II/5 + 1 crash landed, 1 x B-26 Shot down / 1 x Bf 109G-2 "Shot down by Spifires SE Gabes" 11 x Ju 88 Shot down by P-40s + 2 crash landed

21 Jan 1943 - 82nd​ FG P-38s escorted B-26s to anti-shipping strikes near Cape Bon, ran into two recon Italian SM 84s escorted by MC 202s. 11 P-40Fs from GC II/5 went on a sweep over Kairouan –Foundouk, eight of them engaged 4 Fw 190s from JG 2. P40Fs from 33rd​ FG escorted A-20s and P-39s to bomb Ousselta.

Losses: 2 x P-38s lost to MC 202s, 2 x P-40Fs force-landed after combat with FW 190s / 1 x Fw 190 from JG 2 "Lost after combat with P-40s" 1 x BF 109G-2 from JG 77 MiA, 3 x MC 202 'failed to return', 2 x SM 84 shot down.

30 Jan 1943 seven Spitfires from 243 Sqn escort two TaCR, intercepted by FW 190s from JG 2. P-40s from 33rd​ FG escort P-39s to attack German tanks at Faid pass, P-38s from 82nd​ FG escort B-25s vs El Aouinet in southern Tunisia engaging Bf 109s.

Losses: 4 x P -38s shot down, 1 crash-landed. 1 x Spitfire Mk V shot down, 1 x P-40F lost to flak, 2 x P-39s lost to flak / 1 x Bf 109G-2 from JG 51 lost, 1 x MC 202 shot down

31 Jan 1943 – British Spitfire IXs, P-38s from 1st​ 82nd​ FG, and P-40Fs from 33rd​ FG were heavily engaged in the ground fighting and clashed with Bf 109s, Bf 110s, and Fw 190s, as well as Italian MC 202s. US Ace Levi Chasse from 33rd​ FG made a claim which is validated by loss of a Bf 109 in the same area. B-17s and B-24s also made (apparently unescorted) raids and made several claims.

Losses: 3 x P-38s from 82nd​ FG, 1 x F-4 (P-38 recon), 2 x P-40F from 33rd​ FG, 1 x Spitfire IX from 81 Sqn / 4 x Bf 109 from JG 53 and JG 77, 1 x Fw 190 from SkG 10, 2 x BF 110s (to P-38s)

1 Feb 1943 – 13 P-40F from 33rd​ FG intercepted Ju 87s escorted by 12 Bf 109s, making several claims, B-17s raided Tunis (unescorted?) Bf 110s from JG 26 intercepted an F-4 recon plane, claiming it shot down, and 12 Spit Vs from 111 Sqn escorted on TacR spitfire and were intercepted by 4 Bf 109s.

Losses: 3 x P-40F lost plus 2 x crash landed from 33rd​ FG (1 KiA), 1 B-17 / 2 x Bf 109 lost (to B-17s), 1 x MC 202 lost, 3 x Ju-87 lost, 5 x Ju 88 lost (unclear who got these)

2 Feb 1943 – 6 P-40F from 33rd​ FG sent on recon sweep over El Guettar and Bon Hamran, ran into 20+ Ju -87 escorted by 12 Fw 190A which jumped the 33rd​ FG pilots (who thought were Bf 109s) wiping them out. 6 more P-404Fs from 33rd​ FG then escorted P-39s on a TaCR and were engaged by Bf 109s from JG 77. A third mission for 33rd​ FG escorting A-20s from the 47th​ BG to Faid area, was intercepted by Bf 109s from JG 51. P-38s from 82nd​ FG then escorted B-25s against shipping, encountering Axis aircraft which turned out to be Bf 110s from JG 26. (this was the worst single day for any of the US P-40 units that I've been able to find so far in the book)

Losses: 10 x P-40Fs lost and 1 crash landed from 33d FG (5 Kia, 1 PoW), 1 x P-39 lost, 1 x P-38 lost / 2 x Fw 190s from JG 2 crash landed, 2 x Bf 110 from JG 26 lost, 1 x Ju 87 crash landed, 1 x MC 202 crash landed.

3 Feb 1943 – Free French P-40Fs from GC II/5 flew cover over Sened area, one pilot Lt Hebrard was flying back to base with engine trouble when attacked by a Fw 190 and shot down (he later made it back to base). Six Spitfires from 243 Sqn escorted a TacR mission over Kairounan, and on the way back were jumped by Fw 190s of JG 2. Later P-38s from 1st​ and 82nd​ FG escorted B-26s to Gabes, and were engaged in a 40 minute fight with Bf 109s. Another Sqn of 82nd​ FG escorted B-26s on anti-shipping strikes, engaged with Bf 110s from JG 26. Six Fw 190s and 4 Bf 109s strafed and bomb Thelepte airfield.

Losses: 4 x P-38s from 1st​ and 82nd​ FG lost, 4 x Spitfire Mk V from RAF 243 and 241 Sqns lost, 2 x B-26s lost, 1 x French P-40F lost / 1 x Bf 109G lost, 2 x Bf 110 from JG 26 lost, 1 x MC 202 lost, 1 x Ju 88 and 1 x Cant Z.501 lost

8 Feb 1943 – Spitfires from 111 Sqn intercepted Bf 109s and Fw 190s bombing their airfield. P-38s from 1st​ FG flew a sweep over Sousse. 18 P-38s later escorted 15 B-25s from 17th​ B and 18th​ B-25s from 310th​ BG to bomb enemy airfields at Gabes, encountering a large force of Axis fighters including Bf 109s from II./JG 51, I and III. JG 77 and Mc 202s from Regia Aeronautica's 18 Gruppo CT..

In this battle we have an interesting first hand account from a 2nd​ Lt. Gerald L. Rounds:

"In any direction you looked, there were P-38s and Me 109s diving strait down or going strait up – many in vertical banks, leaving two silver vapor trails from their wingtips. We fought for approximately 20 minutes from 10,000' to zero feet. There would be a flicker of a 109; you led him, fired a short burst, and you would see another out of the corner of your eye doing the same thing with you. You'd twist towards him to shorten his firing period, get a burst in if you could. Break off your attack, and sart in on another that was coming your way. It wasn't at all unusual to see a 38 firing at a 109 and have a 109 on the 38's tail, as well as a 38 on that 109's tail, but it would only last a second or two; the whole train would only last a second or two; the whole train would break up as soon as the situation was realized by those in it. During the very short glimpses we would get of the ground, one could see towers of black smoke. We all had the same thought: '-38s? I wonder how many of us are left.' Then it was all over. The only planes you could see were ours. You'd twist and turn, uncovering your blind spots, and still nothing but 38s!"

Losses: 1 x Spitfire V MiA (engine trouble then possibly finished off by 109s) 2 x more Spit Vb and a Hurricane IIc to flak, 1 x P-38G lost, 4 x B-25C shot down and 1 x B-25 crash landed (one to flak, the rest to fighters) / 3 x Bf 109 G-2 and G-4 trop shot down, 1 x Bf 109G-2 crash landed.

 

[Steamed_Banana]

based on all that, I would make the following observations (just my opinions / interpretation):

• All of the Allied fighter units in Western North Africa were having trouble at this point
• A lot of the really one sided massacres were at the hands of the Fw 190s of JG 2 which were (as far as I know) new to the Theater around this time
• Allied units sometimes misidentified these as Bf 109s, which could be a fatal mistake
• The Italians were not playing as much of a role at this point as they had in 1942 and would later again in 1943.
• Even this early though, P-38s were sometimes holding their own with the Bf 109s, or close to it
• (this may have something to do with the arrival of the P-38G which had a bit more HP?)
• Heavy bombers (B-17s and B-24s) were sometimes flying raids without escorts and not being too badly shot up in spite of it
• US light and medium bombers (A-20, B-25, B-26) were holding up better to fighter attack in general than the German ones
• In fact already at this stage the Ju 88s in particular were already suffering unsustainable losses IMO

The worst single day of Axis losses was about 30-40 aircraft destroyed on the ground by a big medium and heavy bomber raid on 22 Jan, though most of the aircraft destroyed were bombers and transports. About 12 Bf 109s were also destroyed or heavily damaged by bombs during this raid.

 

[GregP]

When the P-38s went to North Africa they had 4 distinct disadvantages.

1. The P-38 Pilots had no combat training except basics. Inexperience. There are bounds to be a large number of hard lesssons to be learned.
2. The heaters were inadequate. Not an issue for low to medium altitude missions, but a difficult thing for high-altitude missions.
3. The engine intakes were too smooth and the air and fuel separated in the intakes, causing major problems on occasion. This was noit difficult to fix, but reuired about 6 months for the fix to percolate back to the front lines.
4. The British versus American fuel issue (0% aromatics versus 2%T aromatics) was present at the start of US involvement in the war. It took nine months to fix and only got discovered when a sample of British fuel was sent back to Allison so the issue could be replicated on the test stands. It wasn't an issue very long after it was discovered and was easy to rectify, but it DID exiust at the time the P-38s went to North Africa. The effect was that all the P-38s delivered to the front at first were mis-jetted for the fuel being used. Correcting the jetting removed it from the list of issues easily and it never reappeared after that.

 

[tomo pauk]

The British versus American fuel issue (0% aromatics versus 2%T aromatics) was present at the start of US involvement in the war. It took nine months to fix and only got discovered when a sample of British fuel was sent back to Allison so the issue could be replicated on the test stands. It wasn't an issue very long after it was discovered and was easy to rectify, but it DID exiust at the time the P-38s went to North Africa.

Dear lord.

 

[Frog]

based on all that, I would make the following observations (just my opinions / interpretation):

• All of the Allied fighter units in Western North Africa were having trouble at this point
• A lot of the really one sided massacres were at the hands of the Fw 190s of JG 2 which were (as far as I know) new to the Theater around this time
• Allied units sometimes misidentified these as Bf 109s, which could be a fatal mistake
• The Italians were not playing as much of a role at this point as they had in 1942 and would later again in 1943.
• Even this early though, P-38s were sometimes holding their own with the Bf 109s, or close to it
• (this may have something to do with the arrival of the P-38G which had a bit more HP?)
• Heavy bombers (B-17s and B-24s) were sometimes flying raids without escorts and not being too badly shot up in spite of it
• US light and medium bombers (A-20, B-25, B-26) were holding up better to fighter attack in general than the German ones
• In fact already at this stage the Ju 88s in particular were already suffering unsustainable losses IMO

The worst single day of Axis losses was about 30-40 aircraft destroyed on the ground by a big medium and heavy bomber raid on 22 Jan, though most of the aircraft destroyed were bombers and transports. About 12 Bf 109s were also destroyed or heavily damaged by bombs during this raid.

The SAS raid on Sidi Haneish Airfield (26–27 July 1942) with MGs armed jeeps accounted for a tally of 37 planes destroyed on te ground.

 

[Steamed_Banana]

The SAS raid on Sidi Haneish Airfield (26–27 July 1942) with MGs armed jeeps accounted for a tally of 37 planes destroyed on te ground.

Yes periodic SAS raids were quite telling, but I was referring to the specific period that I covered in the operational history.

 

[GregP]

Dear lord.

That was right exactly when that particular issue was solved, never to reappear again.

Same, although a bit later, for the cockpit heater issue. They abandoned exhaust muffler heaters and went to electric cockpit heaters in later P-38s. Worked very well, never to reappear as an issue. About the same for the smooth Allison intakes tghatg had a turbulator in salled to prevent separation of the Air-fuel mixture at altitude.

Heavy roll forces were overcome by hydraulic ailerons from the P-38J-25-+LO forward. aking the P-38 opne of the best rollers of US fighters after that model came out.

They never did solve the low critical Mach number issue during the war, but it WAS solvable with the right information. Later designs didn't have many low critical Mach number issues, partly thanks to investigations undertaken on behalf of the P-38.

 

[tomo pauk]

That was right exactly when that particular issue was solved, never to reappear again.

There is possibly a misunderstanding in play here.
Namely, I've disagreed with your 'British fuel' story, that was debunked numerous times here.

 

[Steamed_Banana]

Ok here is another little batch of operational histories. Once again this is from Shores Mediterranean Air War Vol IV, starting on page 367.

To be clear, this isn't every combat. I'm just going through page by page looking for days when either side (or both sides) took significant losses, as in 3 or more, to fighters in air to air combat.

1 March 1943 - Spifire Vs from RAF 185 Sqn did a sweep over Ragusa docks, engaging with Bf 109s. Spit IX from 72 Sq and mark Vs from 152 Sqn escorted two TacR Spitfires over Cap Serat, and were engaged by Bf 109s. 1st FG P-38s escorted B-17s on a strike against Palermo docks, where the B-17s managed to sink the Italian destroyer Geniere and some smaller ships. These were then attacked by MC 202s. Other heavy bomber strikes hit Naples and B-26s attacked ground targets near Kasserine. RAF Spitfire, US P-38 pilots, and B-17 and B-26 gunners made claims. Germans from JG 51, 53, and 77 claimed Spitfires, P-38s, Bostons, and B-24s.

Losses: 3 x Spitfire Vb shot down, 2 Spitfire V destroyed in collision, 1 x B-17 and 1 x B-24 lost, 1 x B-26 shot down near Kasserine / 3 x B109G-2 shot down1 x Bf + 109F Jabo ('shot down by Spitfire') lost, Bf 110 force landed, 2 x MC 202 shot down, 1 x MC 202 force-landed, 3 damaged with WiA pilots

8 March 1943 - Spitfire IX from RAF 81 Sqn and Spifire Mk V from RAF 232 Sqn engaged Bf 109s and FW 190s near Bizeerta, P-38s from 1 FG escorted B-17s against shipping east of Bizerta, and US Spitfires from 31st FG flew erecon and then were bounced by Fw 190s, resulting in a prolonged dogfight.

Losses: 1 x Spit IX from RAF 81 Sqn shot down by Fw 190 pilot bailed, 2 x Spitfire V from US 31 FG shot down by Fw 190 / 3 x Bf 109G-4 and G-6 shot down near Cap Bon, 2 x Fw 190 shot down by Spitfires near Kairouan, 1 x MC 202 shot down near Cap Bon.

12 March 1943 - Spitfire V from US 31 and 52nd FG, P-38G from 82nd FG and 1st FG, and P-40L from 33rd FG engaged Axis aircraft in several places, making claims over their own base at Thelepte, the Axis Kairouan airfield, Souse, and Enfidaville, including escorting B-25 and B-26 made tactical raids apparently without escort. B-17 raids vs maritime targets. 3 Beauforts and an Albacore were also lost on a shipping strike but apparently to Flak so I didn't include below.

Losses: 1 x P-38G crash landed (pilot returned), 1 B-26B sot down by fighters / 1 x Bf 109G-4 crash landed after combat with fighters, 1 x Bf 109G4 shot down by B-17 gunners, 1 Fw 190 from SKG 10 shot down, 2 x SM 84 shot down at sea.

13 March 1943 - About 20 P-39s from the 91st and 93rd FS went on a strafing mission near La Fauconnerie, escorted by Spitfires of US 31 FG, they were jumped by Major Müncheburg's II./JG 77 and decimated. (This was the incident which severely curtailed the use of the P-39 in the MTO for a good while)

Losses: 7 x P-39D shot down near La Cauconniere, 6 PoW / no fighter losses on Axis side.

15 March 1943 - 38 P-38s from 82nd FG escorted B-26s to Mezzouna landing ground, encountering six Bf 109s and two Fw 190s. P-38s from the 1st FG escorted B-17s against shipping near Sicily. Spitfires from 31st FG flew four missions escorting B-25s, B-26s, P-38s, and P-39s, engaging Bf 109s and making one claim which was apparently a TacR Bf 109F. 33rd FG fully returned to opertttions with new P-40Ls and escorted B-25s to attakc Mezzouna, they were intercepted by Bf 109s and MC 202s near Mezzouna, claiming several including one by ace Capt levi Chase.

Losses: 1 x P-38F from 82nd FG and 1 x P-38 from 1st FG crash landed, 3 x P-40L from 33rd FG crash landed (pilots returned ) 1 Spitfire V from US 31st FG crash landed (pilot returned) / 2 x Bf 109G-6 aand one G-2 crash landed (1 PoW), 1 Bf 109F-4 recon shot down (pilot returned), 3 x He 111H shot down on shipping raid at sunset (6 MiA, 3 PoW), 1 Ju 88 lost on shipping raid (2 PoW)

21 March 1943 - 4 x P-39s strafing mission vs MT, one crashed, US 31s FG Spitfires escorting Spitfires engaged bf 109s, more US 31 FG Spitfires escorting A-20s ran into Bf 109s escorting Ju 87s and big fight iensued, US 52nd FG escorting bombers on tactical strikes near Gabes,

Losses: 2 x Spitfire V lost (one from 31 one from 52nd FG), 1 x F-4 recon reported missing, 2 x P-39s lost to accidents and flak / 1 x Bf 109F crash landed, 1 x Ju 87 shot down by Spitfire, 1 x Ju 88 lost near Gulf of Hammmet (crew safe)

22 March 1943 - Rain around Mareth limited tactical missions but there were several big air strikes near Sicily. 23 P-38s from 82nd FG escorted B-26s on anti-shipping and were attacked near Cap Serat, then engaged MC 202s escorting an Italian convoy. Bombers sunk 4300 ton feifhter Vincenzo Monti. Spitfires escoirting TacR were engaged near Gabes. 31st FG escorted 18 A-20s on a raid near Mezzouna, 25 P-38s from 1st FG escorted 24 B-24s on a raid against Palermo, intercepted by 6 MC 202s and 2 Dewoitine D.520s (!!). The ammunition ship Alessandro Volta was hist and blew up, seven more mechant ships were blown ashore by the force of the explosion (!!!). Bf 109s from JG 53 engaged the pilots.

Losses: 3 x P-38F from 82nd FG lost near Bizerta (2 KiA, 1 PoW), 2 x Spitfire V (one from 31 FG, one from 52nd FG) lost near Maknassy, one B-26B shot down by Bf 109s near Bizerta, one B-17 crash landed after raid (four KiA, four PoW) / 2 x Bf 109G lost (G2 and G4 from JG 77 and JG 53), 2 x MC 202 lost (one shot down and one crash landed, 1 KiA 1 WiA), 1 x HS 129B shot down by fighters, 3 x Ju 88A-4 sot down by fighters, 2 x He 111s shot down on shipping raid. Several other mishaps and damaged aircraft unrelated to fighter combat.

24 March 1943 - P39s from 81st FG strafing mission and shot down a Fi 156 but were hit by friendly fire on the way back. US 33rd FG escorted 18 B-25s on a raid against Tebaga airfield near Gabes, and were intercepted by 1./JG 77. The Germans had a legend about this battle, noting that the Bf 109s pilots were having trouble with a couple of the P-40s, so Experte and Gruppe Kommandeur Hauptman Hainz Bär said on the radio "Let me do it, you bloddy swine!" supposedly shooting both down in flames. However, US losses do not support this, and the 33rd FG claimed 7 Bf 109s. US Spitfires from the 52nd FG engaged in a sweep near Mkanassy and apparently engaged JG 53, claiming 3 Bf 109s and 1 Fw 190.

Losses: 1 x P-40L from 33rd FG crash landed, 1 Spitfire V shot down (unkown FG) 1 x P-39 FTR, 1 x B-25 lost (tail blown off' - 1 PoW and 4 KiA) / 6 x Bf 109G4 and G6 (5 from JG 77 and 2 from JG 53, with 3 MiA and 2 WiA), 1 Bf 109G-4 heavily damaged, 1 x Ju 88 shot down, 1 Fi 156 'destroyed on the ground' (though this may be the one the P-39s claimed)

29 March 1943 - Spitfires from RAF 242 Sqn and Beaufighters from RAF 153 Sqn scrambled to defend an Allied convoy and engaged He 111s and Bf 110s, claiming 3 aircraft. 6 P-40Ls from 33rd FG escorted 'medium bombers' vs La Fauconniere, joined by 24 more 33rd FG P-40Ls on a 'reconnaisance sweep' in the same area, attacked by Bf 109s from JG 77, resulting in a big dogfight which 33rd FG seemed to get the better of. Spitfires from 31st FG flew a patrol over Gafsa, and engaged Fw 190s and Bf 109s, making several claims. 1st FG P-38s were also engaged but Ic ouldn't see where.

Losses: 1 x P38 from 1st FG shot down, 2 P-40L from 33rd FG shot down (one to ground fire) / 3 x Bf 109G shot down, 3 more Bf 109G crash landed (these were a mix of G2, G-4 and G6, with 3 KiA), 2 x He 111 lost to fighters, 1 Ju 88D

31 March 1943 - Two Tac R Spitfires were escorted by six Spitfires from RAF 243 Sqn, one hit by flak. P-40Ls from 33rd FG flew reconnaissance sorties over Faid area, engaged with Bf 109s. P-39s flew strafing missions and were attacked. More Spifires from RAF 243 Sqn took off on a practice flight but were attacked by Bf 109s. 1st FG P-38s escorted B-25s against an axis convoy near Cap Bon, engaging with Bf 109s, Fw 190s and Me 210s. Another mission with B-25s escorted by P-38s from 82nd FG was hit by a larger force of Axis fighters including Ju 88s and MC 202s, resulting in a heavy fight, one veessel the Nuoro hit by a skip-bomb. More P-38s from 1st FG escorted B-17s to atack Sardinian airfields., engaging MC 202s and Re 2001s. Then later in the day 12 P-40Ls from 33rd FG were strafing near El Guettar when they ran into a flight of Ju 87s escorted by Bf 109s, ace Col William Momyer claiming four Stukas.

Losses: 1 x Spitfire V shot down (pilot safe) 1 x Spitfire V crash landed (pilot MiA), 1 x Hurricane IIc left on 'lone dawn patrol' piot MiA, 2 x P-40L show down ear El Guettar and Maknassy, (1 PoW), 1 P-39 Shot down, 2 x P-38F shot down near Zembra island (2 KiA), 2 x B-25C shot down at sea (11 KiA) / 4 x Bf 109G lost (G-2 and G-4 from JG 77 and JG 53 with 3 KiA and 4 WiA, two say 'combat with p-40' one says 'shot down in combat with B-26'), 4 x MC 202 lost or FTR (4 MiA), 3 x MC 202 forced landed. Several other aircraft were damaged by bombs, flak and other mishaps.

 

[Simon Thomas]

IMHO, the P-38's two main deficiencies in combat were:
1. Very poor roll rate

As Col Royal D. Frey, who flew P-38s with the 20th FG from England, recalled:​

Although the P-38 could turn very tightly once it got into a bank, getting it into a bank was another matter. Late J series and L series Lightnings had aileron boost, but this feature came too late for those few of us who took on the Luftwaffe deep inside Germany in those grim days of late 1943 and early 1944. Because of the weight of the plane and the poor leverage of a control wheel compared to that of a control stick, the plane's roll rate approximated that of a pregnant whale. If we ever got behind a single-engined fighter in a tight turn, all the other pilot had to do was flip into an opposite turn and dive; by the time we had banked and turned after him, he was practically out of sight. [p16]​

2. The Luftwaffe pilot's ability to break off combat at will

Thirty-nine-victory ace Leutnant Johann Pichler, a Bf 109 pilot who flew over North Africa with 7./JG 77 in 1942–43 and who claimed two P-38s in aerial combat, found that:​

. . . an excellent means of breaking off combat was to go into a power dive from high altitude. The P-38 pilots rarely followed us. At first we could not understand this, but the mystery was explained a few months later when a captured P-38 pilot told us that in a dive, the aircraft became too fast to be pulled out safely. [p15]​

Quotes from "P-38 LIGHTNING vs Bf 109 North Africa, Sicily and Italy 1942–43", Edward M. Young

Of note is that the book also shows that the Luftwaffe's Bf 109 pilots established a victory-to-loss ratio of nearly three P-38s for every Bf 109 lost in combat.

 

[GregP]

There is possibly a misunderstanding in play here.
Namely, I've disagreed with your 'British fuel' story, that was debunked numerous times here.

Hard to bebunk facts, Tomo. The issue was documented, and I've seen correspondence about it on Allison and US government paper. Again, it was not an issue for long, and never reappeared later. Once we were all using the same fuel formula, the "problem" went away. Total time for the entire issue was maybe 6 - 8 months, early in the war, when relatively few US aircraft were flying combat, so it wasn't exactly a calamity. It DID help give rise to the "Allison Time Bomb" monicker, when the fuel combined with the intake issue resulted in blown engines, particularly at high altutide after a long cold soak. Also relatively documented, if only in stores from early P-38 pilots blowing engines.

At the museum, we used to regularly have former pilots give talks, and I didn't attend them all, but DID hear it mentioned by a few former early P-38 pilots. The ones who remembered it best were the ones who transferrred from P-38s to other fighters and had the issue disappear. That sort of made the issue stand out in their minds because it didn't reappear in P-47s, etc. . The ones who stayed with the P-38 didn't mention it because the issue was solved.

Recall the P-38Fs finally got into combat in the ETO in Aug 1942. The P-38J reached the ETO in late 1943. Between those times, many issues were solved, all four issues I mentioned above. The P-38 was a good fighter with many virtues. That didn't mean it didn't have a few things that needed work. It can't have been all that bad since it was the mount of our two top fighter aces of the war. Three of the top 10 US aces flew P-38s.

P-38 - Three of top ten.
F6F - One of top ten.
P-47 - Two of top ten.
P-51 - One of top ten.
F4U - Two or top ten. Boyington flew bnoth the P-40 and F4U in his vidtory list, so even the P-40 is mentioned.
F4F - One of top ten.

The P-38 shows up more than any other US fighter in the top ten US aces. How bad could it have been? Really.

 

[Steamed_Banana]

IMHO, the P-38's two main deficiencies in combat were:
1. Very poor roll rate

As Col Royal D. Frey, who flew P-38s with the 20th FG from England, recalled:​

Although the P-38 could turn very tightly once it got into a bank, getting it into a bank was another matter. Late J series and L series Lightnings had aileron boost, but this feature came too late for those few of us who took on the Luftwaffe deep inside Germany in those grim days of late 1943 and early 1944. Because of the weight of the plane and the poor leverage of a control wheel compared to that of a control stick, the plane's roll rate approximated that of a pregnant whale. If we ever got behind a single-engined fighter in a tight turn, all the other pilot had to do was flip into an opposite turn and dive; by the time we had banked and turned after him, he was practically out of sight. [p16]​

2. The Luftwaffe pilot's ability to break off combat at will

Thirty-nine-victory ace Leutnant Johann Pichler, a Bf 109 pilot who flew over North Africa with 7./JG 77 in 1942–43 and who claimed two P-38s in aerial combat, found that:​

. . . an excellent means of breaking off combat was to go into a power dive from high altitude. The P-38 pilots rarely followed us. At first we could not understand this, but the mystery was explained a few months later when a captured P-38 pilot told us that in a dive, the aircraft became too fast to be pulled out safely. [p15]​

Quotes from "P-38 LIGHTNING vs Bf 109 North Africa, Sicily and Italy 1942–43", Edward M. Young

Of note is that the book also shows that the Luftwaffe's Bf 109 pilots established a victory-to-loss ratio of nearly three P-38s for every Bf 109 lost in combat.

Victory to claim ratio, which is a big difference. In the early days, like in the examples from January posted above, the German pilots had a big advantage over the P-38. But that didn't last. Over the long haul in North Africa / Italy it probably ended up closer to 1-1 with the Bf 109.

 

[wuzak]

It can't have been all that bad since it was the mount of our two top fighter aces of the war. Three of the top 10 US aces flew P-38s.

P-38 - Three of top ten.
F6F - One of top ten.
P-47 - Two of top ten.
P-51 - One of top ten.
F4U - Two or top ten. Boyington flew bnoth the P-40 and F4U in his vidtory list, so even the P-40 is mentioned.
F4F - One of top ten.

The P-38 shows up more than any other US fighter in the top ten US aces. How bad could it have been? Really.

It seems that the top 10 aces were dominated by those operating in the Pacific.

 

[wuzak]

Heavy roll forces were overcome by hydraulic ailerons from the P-38J-25-+LO forward. aking the P-38 opne of the best rollers of US fighters after that model came out.

Inertia was still a thing, however.

 

[GregP]

Well, here's something to read attached. Note the end where the fightrers being compared have data. The P-38J with hydraulic boost is the fastest roller, by far. The other 3 were the P-47, P-51B, and P-80A. Not bad company. It ALSO had the smallest turn radius of the four fighters compared.

Not too shabby. Goes a long way to correcting some misconceptions about twins not performing like singles, doesn't it?

 

[tomo pauk]

Hard to bebunk facts, Tomo. The issue was documented, and I've seen correspondence about it on Allison and US government paper. Again, it was not an issue for long, and never reappeared later. Once we were all using the same fuel formula, the "problem" went away. Total time for the entire issue was maybe 6 - 8 months, early in the war, when relatively few US aircraft were flying combat, so it wasn't exactly a calamity. It DID help give rise to the "Allison Time Bomb" monicker, when the fuel combined with the intake issue resulted in blown engines, particularly at high altutide after a long cold soak. Also relatively documented, if only in stores from early P-38 pilots blowing engines.

There was no P-38 flying operationally in Europe early in the war.
As for the rest of the 'British fuel' story, it was debunked. I've agree with the debunks, and still do..

 

[Greg Boeser]

1st and 14th flew a few missions, mostly coastal patrols and sweeps, from England in September- October 1942 before transferring to North Africa in November.
78th and 82nd arrived in UK late 1942, but flew no operational missions.
82nd to North Africa in December.
78th stripped of aircraft and pilots to replenish North African losses. Would convert to P-47 before becoming operational in April 1943.

 

[Steamed_Banana]

Well, here's something to read attached. Note the end where the fightrers being compared have data. The P-38J with hydraulic boost is the fastest roller, by far. The other 3 were the P-47, P-51B, and P-80A. Not bad company. It ALSO had the samllest turn radius of the four fighters compared.

Not too shabby. Goes a long way to correcting some misconceptions about twins not performing like singles, doesn't it?

Thanks for posting Greg. It's quite interesting in that you can see the vast difference between boosted and unboosted ailerons. But the boosted roll rate is estimated, for some reason. And it's interesting that they had to use 80 lbs of force with the wheel, vs 50 with the stick on the P-51 and P-47

but the main issue raised previously was that of roll reversal. Seems like the reality is somewhere between the two estimates.

However in the operational history, it looks like they were figuring out how to make it work regardless. having that accelerated roll and the tight turn from the combat flaps, plus the high combat and climb speed, can all be made to work to a pilot's advantage.

I thought it was interesting in the combat excerpt that the description of the fighting seemed to emphasize a lot of vertical maneuvers, almost exclusively, and that the P-38s and Bf 109s seemed to be roughly on par. By March 1943 the Bf 109G-6s were starting to take over (although there are still a lot of G2s and G4s around) and the P-38s are getting closer to parity with them already by then.

 

[Steamed_Banana]

My observations on the March data:

• The departure of the Fw 190s JG 2 seemed to be very good news for the Allies. The only Allied fighter unit which seemed to really get wrecked in March was 81 FG P-39s on 13 March, with escorting US 31 FG Spitfires apparently unable to save them.
• By this point the P-39s are already flying mostly just strafing missions and are always escorted by other fighters, often suffering accidents and friendly fire incidents.
• Fw 190s were still in the area but these were all in Jabo units. But these were still flying aggressively and attacking Allied aircraft.
• On several occasions US escorted bombing missions ran into Axis escorted bombing missions and the fighters clashed
• The heavier and faster but less maneuverable 109G6 are starting to take over in JG 77, JG 51, and JG 53. These don't seem to be doing as well against Allied fighters in general.
• Italian fighters (MC 202 and Re 2001, and even some captured / repurposed French Dewoitine D.520) are getting more involved as fighting moves to Sardinia and Sicily
• Interesting to see the US and British Spitfire units escorting P-39s and A-20s (21 and 22 March), and even on one occasion P-38s on fighter-bomber strikes
• Spitfire Mk IX are in action with at least two RAF squadrons (72 and 81 Sqn) but the main type active here is still the Mk V with a couple of RAF squadrons and two US FG (31 and 52 FG)
• P-38 units are now flying a mix of P-38F and P-38G
• P-38s are starting to be used more for the longer range strikes and heavy bombers (B-24 and B-17) as on 1, 8, 15, 22, and 31 March
• P-38s are clashing with Bf 110s over the sea a few times, seemingly coming out about even.
• P-38s are doing well against MC 202s, 1st FG P-38s won lopsided victories over MC 202s on March 1 and on March 31 during escort missions against Sicily and Sardinia
• 33rd FG was out for a few weeks recuperating after the massacre they suffered at the hands of JG 2 on Feb 2
• The French GC. II/5 (flying P-40F) was also pulled out for a few weeks
• 33rd FG returned on 15 March now flying P-40Ls, the lighter version of the Merlin P-40, and they seemed to do a lot better, going even on their first big fight on 15 March and winning lopsided victories on 24, 29, and 31 March. This would become the pattern with the US Merlin P-40 units from this point onward.
• P-40s are starting to be used more to escort light bombers (A-20s here) and medium (B-25 and B-26) such as on 15, 24, and 29 March.
• Allied light and medium bombers (A-20, B-25, B-26) taking relatively few losses (notable 2 B-25s lost on 31 Mach) and heavy bombers (B-17 and B-24) are still taking fewer losses than Axis bombers, with Ju 88s and He 111s taking losses on 15, 22, and 29 March, Beauforts also took 3 losses on March 12.
• Both Allied medium and heavy bombers are taking a toll on German fighters when attacked