Effects of Ernst Udet not rising in the Luftwaffe?

What impact would having the extra thousands of aircraft in 1939-41 have had then, especially if it results in significantly higher totals in 1942? Say with 24k aircraft produced in 1941 or 1942? With a 1600hp reliable DB603 available in 1941 in mass production?

The most important result of the original premise, at least for Udet, is that he probably wouldn't have shot himself

Steve

stona said:

The most important result of the original premise, at least for Udet, is that he probably wouldn't have shot himself

Steve

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True, which would actually save Helmuth Wilberg and Werner Mölders from dying in plane crashes on the way to his funeral. Though knowing Udet he may well kill himself flying planes.

wiking85 said:

What impact would having the extra thousands of aircraft in 1939-41 have had then, especially if it results in significantly higher totals in 1942? Say with 24k aircraft produced in 1941 or 1942? With a 1600hp reliable DB603 available in 1941 in mass production?

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You need the pilots, the ground crew, the fuel to make use of the extra planes. Germany's resources were not infinite. While certain items/materials were plentiful (comparatively) others were not and using up a good portion of Germany's stockpiles of strategic materials in 1940-41-42 might not be the best idea. You are betting the war will be over before the supplies run out.

The Germans idea of mass production was way different than the American idea of mass production. Plants capable of putting out hundreds of airframes per month may not have existed in 1938-41. The Germans sometimes had a 1/2 dozen factories building 109s all at the same time in the 1930s. Not 1 or 2 factories each making a few hundred fighters a month. I have no idea how much the Germans added extra factories/shops as teh years went on. I doubt the factories of 1943-44 were the same size as the factories of 1940-41 however.
Please remember that factory space is somewhat fungible. A prewar factory of 100,000 sq ft might not add on to the existing building much IF certain depts or operations can be performed in a new building or more extensive use is made of subcontractors. Instead of casting on site the casting dept is either moved off site or a subcontractor employed and the old casting shop floor space is added to final assembly.

Even putting together the stories of American factories is hard. P &W quadrupled in floor size from 1937 to 1940. The Ford R-2800 plant duplicated the size of the 1940 P W plant and was tripled in size by 1944 by two different additions/expansions. The Ford operation utilized hundreds of subcontractors. The Main P &W plant added 4-5 satellite plants within 20-30 miles of the main factory and some of these buildings were around 3/4 million sq ft in size each.

It is hard to believe that the German production numbers of 1943/44 were achieved using the same size factories and same size workforce as the Germans were using in 1938-39.
This rather discounts the work some of the captured territories did.

Shortround6 said:

It is hard to believe that the German production numbers of 1943/44 were achieved using the same size factories and same size workforce as the Germans were using in 1938-39.
This rather discounts the work some of the captured territories did.

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Yet they were. Part of that was experience with the types being made, improved production flow planning, specialist machine tools, and assembly line methods, put largely the increases were had with the same number of employees with less skill, the same raw material allocations, and the same factory floor space.

OK, It had nothing to do with Renault making Argus engines, The French building Bf 108s, the Siebel 204 being built in Czechoslovakia and France. BMW 801s (or parts for them) being built in France. Do 24s being built in Holland and France. The He 274 being built in France. and others.

German workers traveled to France and Holland and Czechoslovakia on their vacations, bringing their tools with them and working outdoors (no factory floor space) in a late "strength through Joy" program I suppose?

What ever happened to those "dispersed" manufacturing schemes that the allied bombing was supposed to have disrupted? If you are bringing in parts from other locations to assemble in the original factory you have increased factory floor space. You just aren't counting the off site floor space.

Shortround6 said:

OK, It had nothing to do with Renault making Argus engines, The French building Bf 108s, the Siebel 204 being built in Czechoslovakia and France. BMW 801s (or parts for them) being built in France. Do 24s being built in Holland and France. The He 274 being built in France. and others.

German workers traveled to France and Holland and Czechoslovakia on their vacations, bringing their tools with them and working outdoors (no factory floor space) in a late "strength through Joy" program I suppose?

What ever happened to those "dispersed" manufacturing schemes that the allied bombing was supposed to have disrupted? If you are bringing in parts from other locations to assemble in the original factory you have increased factory floor space. You just aren't counting the off site floor space.

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All numbers from Overy's Goering bio. p.144
Non-German production of war aircraft basically did not really happen before 1943 and peaked in 1944. France produced a grand total of 2500 aircraft for Germany, almost all trainers, from 1940-44, with the vast majority being delivered in 1943-44 after France was occupied. Not exactly a big number out of the great than 100k aircraft that Germany made in WW2. Czechoslovakia was basically part of the German economy and shouldn't really be counted separately from it, as it was already producing for Germany pre-war and its numbers were included in German output.
As to the He274 a grand total of 2 were ever built, prototypes. None were completed in France. Bf108s were trainers, the Si 204 was a transport/trainer. Very little of BMW 801 production, even parts, ever came from France.

Basically Europe only contributed machine tools captured and forced labor to the German war effort and that really shouldn't be counted as part of reason for expanded production, because the labor was used to replace German skilled labor sent to the military and the machine tools mostly went unused and were largely returned as useless due to lack of skilled labor.

Now the dispersed plants weren't an expansion of factory floor space, they were the replacement for abandoned wrecked facilities.