Empire fighter program?

[Admiral Beez]

The Fokker D.XXI fighter was designed in 1935 by Dutch aircraft manufacturer Fokker in response to requirements laid out by the Royal Netherlands East Indies Army Air Force Fokker D.XXI - Wikipedia

While clearly nothing was made, did the British ever conceive of an Empire fighter? Perhaps something with fixed undercarriage (intended for rough-field operations and ease of maintenance) like the D.XXI or FMA Curtiss Hawk 75O?

 

[Snautzer01]

The Fokker D.XXI fighter was designed in 1935 by Dutch aircraft manufacturer Fokker in response to requirements laid out by the Royal Netherlands East Indies Army Air Force Fokker D.XXI - Wikipedia

While clearly nothing was made, did the British ever conceive of an Empire fighter? Perhaps something with fixed undercarriage (intended for rough-field operations and ease of maintenance) like the D.XXI or FMA Curtiss Hawk 75O?

Good question. Since the conditions are so emens different but the budget is tiny, wasnt it to be a jack of all trades, but a champion of nothing to begin with?? What tade off's were made?

 

[Admiral Beez]

What trade off's were made?

The fixed undercarriage and simpler poppet-valve radial engine, for starters. Interestingly, rotary-powered Bristol M.1 aside, the British themselves did not operate a single-seat, monoplane, radial-powered fighter until the Centaurus-powered Tempest of 1944. I don't want to go into a deep dive on the Gloster F5/34 as it was intended to be a first-rate home defence fighter. I suppose the ideal option as far as robustness, maintenance and cost is the Gloster Gladiator, but it was not intended as an Empire fighter.

 

[EwenS]

The Fokker D.XXI fighter was designed in 1935 by Dutch aircraft manufacturer Fokker in response to requirements laid out by the Royal Netherlands East Indies Army Air Force Fokker D.XXI - Wikipedia

While clearly nothing was made, did the British ever conceive of an Empire fighter? Perhaps something with fixed undercarriage (intended for rough-field operations and ease of maintenance) like the D.XXI or FMA Curtiss Hawk 75O?

No.

But in 1940 they purchased the Brewster Buffalo. "The main driver for its purchase was the need to provide more modern equipent for the RAF in areas not directly involved in the war; this need could not be met from existing production lines, which were more than fully committed to equipping and supporting front-line squadrons in combat areas." from Air Arsenal North America.

That was a toss up beween the Buffalo & the P-35. Buffalo won because there were doubts about Seversky's ability to deliver when they already held contracts from the Swedish Air Force.

See also the origins of Hindustan Aircraft Limited and the contract to build the Curtiss P-36 under licence in India.

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Central Aircraft Manufacturing Company - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

From Joe Baugher's site

"The Hawk 75A-5 was the Curtiss company designation for a Cyclone-powered model which was to be assembled in China by the Central Aircraft Manufacturing Company (CAMCO). At least one complete airplane and some kits of unassembled parts were delivered to China. After assembling some aircraft in China, the CAMCO firm was reorganized as Hindustan Aircraft Ltd. in Bangalore, India. In April 1941 the Indian government placed a contract with Hindustan for the construction of 48 Cyclone 9-powered Hawk 75As, together with the necessary spares. Hindustan acquired a manufacturing license from Curtiss, and the first Indian-built machine flew on July 31, 1942. However, shortly after this flight, a change in policy resulted in the decision to abandon the construction of complete aircraft in India. After four more machines were constructed, the Hindustan program was terminated. These Indian-built machines were eventually absorbed into the RAF as Mohawk IVs."
"Indian Govt" being the British Imperial Govt in India.

 

[Howard Gibson]

The Fokker D.XXI fighter was designed in 1935 by Dutch aircraft manufacturer Fokker in response to requirements laid out by the Royal Netherlands East Indies Army Air Force Fokker D.XXI - Wikipedia

While clearly nothing was made, did the British ever conceive of an Empire fighter? Perhaps something with fixed undercarriage (intended for rough-field operations and ease of maintenance) like the D.XXI or FMA Curtiss Hawk 75O?

Was an Empire fighter a good idea? You want maximum performance in your fighter aircraft unless you are absolutely confident in your enemy's incompetence. A small number of good aircraft might be better than lots of cheap, crappy aircraft out in the colonies. As we all know, the Japanese wore coke bottle bottom glasses, and they did not know how to fly.

My Profile publication (#63) does not mention the Royal Netherlands East Indies Army Air Force, just the regular Dutch air force. Several contemporary cantilever monoplane fighters, including the Mitsubishi A5Ms and Nakajima Ki.27s, had fixed landing gear. What Fokker lacked for the D.XXI was a big engine, and control over their home territory after 1940. My literature shows that the D.XXI was heavier and slower than a Ki.27 and had less wing area.

The closest thing to your aircraft would be the CAC Boomerang, which was an act of desperation more than anything else.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Was an Empire fighter a good idea?

No, I'd say it is not. But as it was, IIRC the Empire east of Suez had no fighters whatsoever until the Buffaloes begin arriving in 1941.

However, we could achieve the benefits of a Empire fighter program (reduced cost, less strain on limited design/production capacity and resources) without dramatically sacrificing performance by making CKD (complete knock-down) aircraft and shipping them to the Empire to assemble. Eventually the local plants will gain the experience to manufacture some elements. For example, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in Bangalore was producing P-36 and A-31s by 1942.

 

[Howard Gibson]

No, I'd say it is not. But as it was, IIRC the Empire east of Suez had no fighters whatsoever until the Buffaloes begin arriving in 1941.

However, we could achieve the benefits of a Empire fighter program (reduced cost, less strain on limited design/production capacity and resources) without dramatically sacrificing performance by making CKD (complete knock-down) aircraft and shipping them to the Empire to assemble. Eventually the local plants will gain the experience to manufacture some elements. For example, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in Bangalore was producing P-36 and A-31s by 1942.

Building contemporary aircraft in the dominions and colonies was a good idea, and they did it. Canadian Car and Foundry manufactured Hawker Hurricanes, from scratch as far as I can tell. de Havilland made Mosquitoes in both Canada and Australia. Lancasters were made in Canada, and Beaufighters in Australia. These were up to date aircraft, except for the Hurricanes.

I am becoming curious about Hindustan Aircraft. This could be a very interesting story.

 

[EwenS]

No, I'd say it is not. But as it was, IIRC the Empire east of Suez had no fighters whatsoever until the Buffaloes begin arriving in 1941.

However, we could achieve the benefits of a Empire fighter program (reduced cost, less strain on limited design/production capacity and resources) without dramatically sacrificing performance by making CKD (complete knock-down) aircraft and shipping them to the Empire to assemble. Eventually the local plants will gain the experience to manufacture some elements. For example, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in Bangalore was producing P-36 and A-31s by 1942.

Actually there was not a lot of work involved in assembling aircraft in a warzone in WW2 compared to actually constructing it.

Early A-31 Vengeance aircraft were delivered largely complete as deck cargo, later in crates.

A Hurricane or Spitfire came in a single crate with everything bar the tools in the box. Assembly here of Hurricanes at Takoradi in West Africa.

ROYAL AIR FORCE: WEST AFRICA COMMAND, 1941-1945.

The fuselage of a Hawker Hurricane is pulled from its packing crate for assembly at Takoradi, Gold Coast, after being shipped from the United Kingdom. The wings, tailplanes and propeller can be seen stowed in the side sections of the crate. Once assembled, the aircraft were then ferried to Egypt...

www.iwm.org.uk

Spitfires at Gibraltar & Casablanca

ROYAL AIR FORCE OPERATIONS IN MALTA, GIBRALTAR AND THE MEDITERRANEAN, 1939-1945.

Airmen of the Special Erection Party and soldiers of 2nd Battalion, the Somerset Light Infantry, unpack the fuselage of a Supermarine Spitfire Mark V drawn from a crate by a Coles crane on the edge of the runway at North Front, Gibraltar.

www.iwm.org.uk

ROYAL AIR FORCE OPERATIONS IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND NORTH AFRICA, 1939-1943.

Civilian workers running the wing of a Supermarine Spitfire Mark VIII out of its crate prior to assembly of the aircraft (JF672, seen in the foreground) by No.145 Maintenance Unit at Cazès Airport, Casablanca, Morocco. Most of the civilians employed at 145 MU were Spanish refugees who fled to...

www.iwm.org.uk

Video here of P-47 assembly "in the field" without the benefit of power tools.

Empire fighter program?

No, I'd say it is not. But as it was, IIRC the Empire east of Suez had no fighters whatsoever until the Buffaloes begin arriving in 1941. However, we could achieve the benefits of a Empire fighter program (reduced cost, less strain on limited design/production capacity and resources) without...

ww2aircraft.net

Edit:- The problem in someplace like India was the lack of skilled engineers. That hindered expansion of the IAF pre-war, as more of the qualifying engineers preferred to join the Indian Railways where there was more of a future. Unlike Canada & Australia you are looking at a largely illiterate population making the training problem even worse.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Building contemporary aircraft in the dominions and colonies was a good idea, and they did it.

We need an earlier start to get an Empire fighter program going before the war. A good catalyst would be at the 1937 Imperial Conference (or ideally the 1932 Conference), where we can have Britain cut to the chase and tell the attendees that they need to step on their own defence beyond manpower, with a focus on aircraft production.

While Pratt & Whitney had service facilities in both Canada and Australia in the 1930s (and complete engine production in Oz in the early 40s), AFAIK, no Bristol or A/S aeroengines were produced outside of Britain, so we'll either need to rely on crated engines from Britain or the USA.

 

[yulzari]

Edit:- The problem in someplace like India was the lack of skilled engineers. That hindered expansion of the IAF pre-war, as more of the qualifying engineers preferred to join the Indian Railways where there was more of a future. Unlike Canada & Australia you are looking at a largely illiterate population making the training problem even worse.

Whilst there was an illiteracy problem in India it was not as large as one might imagine. Very many were literate: but not in English. There are many languages in India often with their own writing form. Within a factory one could build upon trained engineers who were literate in English to run and train staff using their own languages and manuals translated into them in their own script. What actually happened later in India was that the nation's engineers continued to use English as a Lingua Franca across the nation and continue to do so and familiarity with written English is linked to social class. An issue which divides the educational world of India with one part championing English as a universal worldwide opportunity for young Indians and another which champions industry and government changing it's habits to accommodate equally valid local languages. This latter suffers from minor languages being ignored which further divides the social strata of India. As a Briton who has to speak a mixture of foreign French and German with a touch of Danish/Norwegian I sympathise with them.

My point is that an early enough POD of training and engineering literature and manuals in the local languages will make suitable recruitment and staff skill development much faster and avoid the Indian Army situation whereby the officers have to speak and write in English in order to communicate with other units whose use their own local internal language. Hence the Indian Army required their officers to be competent in speaking the unit local languages and, hence, limited the number of units possible because the number of suitable English literate officers was very limited. A problem that pass on into the post independence army which built itself around English as the Lingua Franca. It is, peripherally, interesting that the Austrian Hungarian army built itself around a limited 'army German' of a small number of phrases and words that all recruits were expected to master.

The internal use of the local language avoids competing for a few English literate engineers by investing in the 'literate hardware' of textbooks and manuals to allow the 'literate software' of training from semi skilled to postgraduate engineers to create a pool of literate engineers in the factory. Not to mention a development of a modern educational printing industry and teachers in the local language. A working literacy in English will be an advantage allowing engineers more career mobility of course as they can converse and work with their engineering peers elsewhere but if the POD were established early enough it would avoid the English literacy bottle neck. Ideally from the beginning of Indian industrialisation. India already being an industrial nation in 17th century terms.

 

[Howard Gibson]

Canada was perceived to outside German bombing range, so stuff was contracted out here fairly quickly. Do you start your aircraft shadow factories immediately, or do you want until you have a working production line at home, and a cadre of skilled workers to provide support.

Someone has to start manufacturing Merlin engines.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Someone has to start manufacturing Merlin engines.

No chance to have that in place for a pre-1941 Empire fighter. And the IPTO is radial country.

 

[Howard Gibson]

No chance to have that in place for a pre-1941 Empire fighter. And the IPTO is radial country.

A lot of Bolingbrokes (Bristol Blenheims manufactured in Canada) had American engines.

 

[MikeMeech]

A lot of Bolingbrokes (Bristol Blenheims manufactured in Canada) had American engines.

Hi
Lots? According to 'Canadian Aircraft since 1909' by Molson & Taylor, page 122, reference the Pratt & Whitney Twin Wasp Jr:
"A trial installation was made in RCAF 9005 which was flown on 10 February, 1941, and it was followed by only 14 more."
And reference the Wright Cyclone only one aircraft, RCAF 9074, was fitted and tested on 23 April, 1942. These were the Bolingbrokes Mk.IVW and Mk. IVC respectively.
Production in Canada of Bolingbrokes was 1939 - 1, 1940 - 17, 1941 - 79, 1942 - 276, 1943 - 253. So only 16 out of this production were fitted with US engines according to the source.

Mike

 

[MiTasol]

Was an Empire fighter a good idea? You want maximum performance in your fighter aircraft unless you are absolutely confident in your enemy's incompetence. A small number of good aircraft might be better than lots of cheap, crappy aircraft out in the colonies. As we all know, the Japanese wore coke bottle bottom glasses, and they did not know how to fly.

The closest thing to your aircraft would be the CAC Boomerang, which was an act of desperation more than anything else.

When Australia was catapulted into the Pacific war it had no fighter squadrons in service with the Hawker Australian Demon (essentially a rebadged Hawker Hind as the RAAF used Hind manuals for the Demon) and they had two squadrons of Beaufighters on order for delivery in 1943. The reason was not confidence in the enemy's incompetence but the mistaken belief that the Australians ruled the seas around Australia. To quote the 23 Dec 1941 War Cabinet papers:-

Note that even then the RAAF's most urgent requirement 15 days after Pearl Harbor was 9 Catalina aircraft.

 

[Admiral Beez]

A lot of Bolingbrokes (Bristol Blenheims manufactured in Canada) had American engines.

True. I was replying specifically on pre-war license production of Merlins.

It's easy to get American-made engines to Canadian plants. For example, P&W's factory was located in East Hartford, CT, with excellent rail connections to the Canadian aircraft factories in Ontario and Quebec, including the Bolingbrook factory in Longueuil, Quebec. On the other hand, the Australians had to produce their own American engines for their Beauforts and CAC aircraft.

 

[EwenS]

Australia had ordered 18 Catalinas under Contract Aus 58 on 5 Aug 1940. These were delivered, mostly by Qantas crews Feb-Oct 1941 and were intended for 11 & 20 squadrons, each intended to have 4 active 2 reserve aircraft plus an attrition reserve.

That contract contained an option for another 9 aircraft. Australia gave up the benefit of that option to Britain. So their construction was tacked onto the end of the existing British contract and delivered to the RAF between Nov 1941 & Jan 1942 as serial numbers AJ154-AJ162.

Australia began enquiries into additional aircraft in Oct 1941 for another 9 Catalinas with a view to increasing the operational strength of its two squadrons to 6 active 3 reserve plus 3 more attrition reserves. After some negotiations it was agreed to divert 9 aircraft from the Canadian Catalina contract with Boeing Canada. These aircraft arrived in Australia 13 Mar - 14 Apr 1942.

As for the Beaufighter, it is true that Australia ordered 18 Mk.I in June 1939 conditional on the prototype, which only flew in July 1939, successfully completing its trials. Contractually the Australian contract was an extension of the second RAF contract for production at Bristol's Filton plant. They were provisionally allocated serials Z7261-Z7278. Had the contract stood delivery should have started around Mar/Apr 1942 looking at the dates of production on the contracts either side. In the end the aircraft were produced as Mk.VIf April Apr/ May 1943 with serials BT286-BT303. None went to Australia.

Plans for the delivery of this initial 18 Beaus to Australia fell through in the crisis of 1940.

As a result of PM Menzies visit to Britain in May 1941, Australia was able to order 54 Beaufighter Ic with 12 to be delivered by the end of 1941 and the remainder by March 1942. Those 54 aircraft left Britain between late Jan 1942 and early April, reaching Australia between late March & early June.

For Australia the problem lies in the inter war Singapore Strategy. Any war against Japan was going to take place far to the north. So fighter defence of the nation was less important when it came time to rearm, than protecting its SLOC with the rest of the world. So a general recce type (Beaufort) and long range fighter (Beaufighter) make more sense in that context than a single engined "Empire" fighter. That really only changed in early 1942 when the DEI fell and the enemy was on the northern doorstep.

 

[yulzari]

Perhaps a starting point might be an Empire engine designed for easy manufacture on the limited tooling that might be expected.

A compromise might be Canadian manufacture as it was safe from conceivable attack, can access skilled engineers and semi skilled fitters, has access to materials including key small parts like bearings and ignition etc. and is placed to ship to either the Pacific or Atlantic. A far safer proposition than the UK and leaves the UK resources untouched for home defence, NW European high tempo battle and supply to the Middle East.

So something in the 1,200 bhp class. A single row 4 valve supercharged radial seems to fit the bill. Maybe a scaled up Pegasus as a plan model? To match to a lightish medium bomber/ torpedo bomber/ long range recce and a reasonable range interceptor fighter. Also a flying boat for similar role to the medium bomber but with extra endurance.

If designers and engineers etc. are flat out working on the RAF's needs then there are possible USA models such as the Martin Maryland, Catalina and Buffalo or Martlet which could be manufactured in India, Canada and/ or Australia.

One might stretch a point for simplicity and just licence build Marylands if a torpedo can be slung underneath (internally? [doubtful]).

 

[Admiral Beez]

When Australia was catapulted into the Pacific war it had no fighter squadrons in service....

And that's where I am suggesting a divergence from history. It's the 1937 Imperial Conference held in London from May to late June 1937, where Britain tells Australia that they're focused on the growing might of Germany and Italy, and that Australia needs to get moving on its own defence. To emphasize their point Britain provides an intelligence brief (assuming good British intel) on Japan's military expansion:

Recently introduced aircraft:

• 2 x fighters: Nakajima Ki-27 and Mitsubishi A5M
• 2 x bombers: Mitsubishi Ki-15, Mitsubishi G3M, plus intel that a new naval bomber has first flown six months ago (later identified as the Nakajima B5N)
• Plus rumours of advanced multi-engined bombers in development at Mitsubishi and Nakajima for introduction in 1938-39.

Ships building:

• 2 x Fleet carriers: Sōryū (to commission this December) and Hiryū, plus intel that the first of a new class, (later identified as the Shōkaku) will be laid down this year.
• 1 x Battleship: a new class of battleship (the future Yamato) was ordered in March 1937. Rumour is that a second unit (Musashi) will be ordered this month.
• 4 x Heavy cruisers: 2xMogami, 2xTone
• Plus new submarines, destroyers

A big challenge here is that the Australian PM, Joseph Lyons was a proponent of appeasement and of keeping positive relations with Japan, including pushing for a non-aggression pact between the major powers in the Pacific. Perhaps the events a few weeks after the Conference when Japan invades China may rattle his cage somewhat. We need the Australian PM of 1937 to call in the chiefs of the newly founded (1936) Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation and propose a fighter program to match the known specs of the Ki-27 and A5M.

 

[EwenS]

You need to be careful about what was known from intelligence sources about Japanese shipbuilding plans and not apply hindsight. So long as the Japanese remained part of the Treaty system (to 31 Dec 1936) they were required to give some basic information about new vessels at the time of laying down & completion. After that they operated in great secrecy to prevent outside intelligence communities gaining access to details off their new vessels.

For example, it ws known the Japanese would most likely lay down a couple of battleships in 1937 and it was believed that they would most likely exceed the 35,000 ton Treaty limit. Hence the agreement by the signatories to the 1936 London Treaty agreeing a new 45,000 ton limit in July 1937. No one expected them to be the size the Yamatos turned out to be. They erected screens around the dry dock Yamato was built in to hide construction from prying eyes.Their size and armament remained unknown until well into WW2 (1943/44 IIRC).

The Shokakus were expected to be repeat Soryus. That only began to change when photos of Shokaku were taken during the Battle of the Coral Sea in May 1942. Even then the USN ONI books for late 1942 still contained erroneous information about them.

Rumours of what the Japanese might be doing often proved wide of the mark, like the super cruiser of the late 1930s that proved to be non-existent. It was often not until aircraft turned up in combat in China that their true capabilities came to be known e.g. G4M Betty bomber from Sept 1940 & the A6M Zero fighter from July 1940.