Engineering?

Apart from the 3 main pyramids. There are plenty of others including failed attempts. Most of which are now buried under the sand but do show an evolution to the process of building the pyramids.

That's right, unfortunately they came after the Giza pyramids which brings us back to the question 'why did they get worse instead of better?'

To plan your individual pyramid make a model (just as good as CAD). For precision don't knock sighting sticks, plumb bobs, water levels of various kinds etc (despite lasers, they are still part of the builders tool kit).

We're talking about a level of precision a world away from what you're talking about. How does your model take into account the way the pyramid interiors were designed and laid out?
Additionally, did any of these plumb bobs, water levels and sighting sticks get the top tiers of stone up to the heights they were placed at?

How did the Egyptians go dumb. Pyramids weren't secure. It was more effective hiding bodies in the valley of the kings. Also consider catastrophe, slaves doing a runner and foreign takeover. Don't forget Europe had its dark ages with the collapse of Rome. If it wasn't for the arabs we might still think the earth is flat.

It is a long-held mystery as to just how Ancient Egypt came to be, there doesn't seem to have been any build-up or progression to the regional power that it became; it's like Egypt 'big-banged' onto the scene with all of its culture and civilisation and architectural achievements already in place.
There then began a steady decline in their abilities, most visibly in their pyramids; all the pyramids found thus far post-date the Giza pyramids and yet all are technically far inferior to them, so good question - how did the Egyptians go dumb? Did they just forget how to create an architectural marvel like the Giza pyramids?

A copper saw will cut a giant block of stone very neatly and in a reasonable time with a mix of sand and water.

I wasn't aware the Egyptians used copper saws to dress their masonry. It may well do but how do you explain the near-impeccable mating of the two surfaces of adjacent blocks?

To lift a needle roll base up ramp of sand over a sand pit. Open a door to release sand from pit. Needle will hit turning groove at approx 85%. Requiring some labour to pull the needle the last 5% with rope and pulley (cant pull with rope and pulley from horizontal as requre too many men and ropes and wll damage needle in turning groove.

Are you talking about obelisks like Cleopatra's Needle? That's a feat in itself but doesn't really compare in any way with the Giza Pyramids in terms of architectural/engineering achievement.

This maybe of intrest concerning the development of the pyramids.

The Evolution of the Egyptian Pyramid

Copper saws:-

Ancient Egyptian Stoneworking Tools and Methods: Copper slabbing saws

I am not an egyptologist but do have some small experience of surveyng and I would say this. Wth a bit of trig and a theodolite it is possble to accurately map a continent. So with some proto trig and sighting sticks a pyramid is a piece of cake compared.

As for lost knowledge once the Romans left these shores masonary declined to near extinction.

"Are you talking about obelisks like Cleopatra's Needle? That's a feat in itself but doesn't really compare in any way with the Giza Pyramids in terms of architectural/engineering achievement."

Why not. Q How do you build a pyramid A: One block as a time.

Who or what are you suggesting built them?

I am always inspired by what mankind can achieve. For surveying compare Cooke's maps to todays. John Harris a mere carpenter who conqured Longitude etc,etc.

It amazes that in the so called modern world with all its wonders. People will rather credit alien intelligence or spirtulism over human innovation.

I am not an egyptologist but do have some small experience of surveying and I would say this. With a bit of trig and a theodolite it is possble to accurately map a continent. So with some proto trig and sighting sticks a pyramid is a piece of cake compared.

I don't agree. Are you suggesting that the cartographical issue of mapping a continent can be compared realistically to the architectural/engineering issue of building a Giza pyramid simply because trig is involved? Or vice-versa?

As for lost knowledge once the Romans left these shores masonary declined to near extinction.

That is close to the point that both myself and Bill made; someone came, built and left - the locals were left with product but not the skills to perpetuate.

Why not. Q How do you build a pyramid A: One block as a time.

Unfortunately, 'one block at a time' gets you to the finished product for a needle after just one block; erecting a needle does not address how the middle and top layers of a pyramid were laid, nor the construction of an incredibly complex interior; a needle, though impressive in its own right does not compare with a pyramid as an architectural/engineering feat.

Who or what are you suggesting built them?

I return simply to my opening point
'We don't know for sure who built the Giza Pyramids...'

I am always inspired by what mankind can achieve. For surveying compare Cooke's maps to todays. John Harris a mere carpenter who conquered Longitude etc

Absolutely correct. No-one is deriding or undermining Mankind's achievements, I simply submitted the notion that the Giza Pyramids were a 'serious feat of engineering'. As regards maps, as impressed as I am with 'contemporary' maps, I am significantly more impressed with the Piri Reis maps...

It amazes that in the so-called modern world with all its wonders, people will rather credit alien intelligence or spirtualism over human innovation

There, you said it. I didn't. I didn't credit alien intelligence with the building of the Pyramids. I will concede that I'm prepared to maintain an open mind on the issue.

As an aside, you mentioned egyptologists in your opening line. It is worthy of note that a substantial amount of the knowledge of Ancient Egypt was revealed not by archaeologists, paleoanthropologists or egyptologists but by modern-day scientists and engineers, who made similar discoveries for civilisations contemporaneous with Ancient Egypt.

Hi guys, long time no see, hope everyone is doing well

Anyway I'm with BigZ on this one. All this talk of Aliens is just completely far out IMO.

Ah Soren, where ya been?

Been very busy at work and at home for the past months, had to travel abit

Soren...!! Where the h*ll have you been hiding mate, good to see you again!

It's great to see you guys again as-well, been missing all the great discussions

"I don't agree. Are you suggesting that the cartographical issue of mapping a continent can be compared realistically to the architectural/engineering issue of building a Giza pyramid simply because trig is involved? Or vice-versa?"

I would suggest that mapping a continent is far more difficult than laying out a pyramid. Both are accomplised with simple sighting devices. When I studied surveying lasers were only starting to appear. Surveys where conducted with a chain a stick and theodolite(simply sighting device) and a bit of maths. All of which were good enough to build the empire state building or map of a continent.

That is close to the point that both myself and Bill made; someone came, built and left - the locals were left with product but not the skills to perpetuate.

I had to do a bit reasearch. Yes their was several foreign influences during the rule of Acient Egypt. But this is to be expected from a kingdom lasting over 3500 years. But given how long this dynasty lasted its ineviatable that artisans would have flourised and architecture would have progressed. What would the Romans had achieved if their empire had lasted that long?

You mentioned regression. I have already mentioned the pyramids became obsolete and catastrope(I will also adivse your timeline for certain pyramid structures maybe incorrect). Another consideration is the WILL(regression?)of a nation. An example of this is flight, within 70years mankind went from a short hop to landing man on the moon, people could travel commercially at twice the speed of sound. 30 years on we just about get man into space and comercial travel is now all subsonic.

"There, you said it. I didn't. I didn't credit alien intelligence with the building of the Pyramids. I will concede that I'm prepared to maintain an open mind on the issue."

. Am glad your keeping an open mind. Personally I think mathmatically the odds are good on alliens existing. Just don't buy all that "Chariot of the Gods" mumbo jumbo. At least with christian/muslim/jewish religion their is archeology to back some of it up.

"As an aside, you mentioned egyptologists in your opening line. It is worthy of note that a substantial amount of the knowledge of Ancient Egypt was revealed not by archaeologists, paleoanthropologists or egyptologists but by modern-day scientists and engineers, who made similar discoveries for civilisations contemporaneous with Ancient Egypt."

I find quite often the scientists and engineers like to go overboard on the ropes and pulleys and some of the better ideas(simpler) come from the stone masons and carpenters who build their (scientists and engineers)contraptions after they have failed.

Soren good to see you back.

muller said:

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Gets my vote. This picture gives the impression of the strain involved in launching the Great Eastern. At the time of Great Eastern break up Liverpool Football Club were looking for a flag pole for their Anfield ground and consequently purchased her top mast. It still stands there today, at the Kop end.

Pity his 7 foot guage railway become the standard.

How about WAY forward: Zephrem Cochran of Alpha Centauri.


- Ivan.

Ivan1GFP said:

How about WAY forward: Zephrem Cochran of Alpha Centauri

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What a bum
the guy was a drunk

will be a drunk?