Escort Fighter Performance Comparison

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From mid 1941 until the end of 1942 and early 1943 the Luftwaffe day fighters in the west could pick when to engage, since the amount of damage the raiders could inflict on anything important was minimal, as the 8th Air Force built up it was realised that had to change but the priority for the first half of 1943 was the defence of Tunisia then Sicily and the Kursk offensive. The experience of the 1941/42 fighting had given the Luftwaffe a good ability to ignore fighter only operations, given the bombers cruised slower than the fighters it was a clue, and generally avoid poor tactical situations.

In July and August 1943 the Luftwaffe received a series of significant wake up calls, in date order, the "overnight success"
1) On July 5 the Kursk offensive begins, for the first time in the east the Luftwaffe is unable to secure air superiority where it wants it, the Red Air Force is able to intervene effectively. The air force needs to become bigger, given the Red Air Force largely ignores its opposite number the Luftwaffe can usually still operate.
2) 10 July the allied invasion of Sicily, in the air fighting before and during the invasion the Luftwaffe discovers the more aircraft it commits the higher the casualties without changing the overall situation. The air force needs to become much bigger or leave.
3) 27 July the firestorm at Hamburg.
4) 17 August the strikes on Schweinfurt and Peenemunde.
The next day the Luftwaffe chief of staff committed suicide.

Starting in July, after the failures of the Kursk and Sicily operations and with increased pressure on the home defences the Luftwaffe focus day fighters shifted to defending Germany, enabling the defeat of the unescorted day bomber but also making it easier for the allied forces in the "tactical" field. While the bomb damage started to really hurt the war economy.

Fighter Command did not change size much in the 1942/43 period in terms of number of day fighter squadrons, the quality went up but not the quantity. The big change in terms of pressure on the Luftwaffe was the USAAF, since it was totally dedicated to offensive operations while the RAF defended Britain as well, including the US airbases. As well as the numbers comes the availability and size of external tanks for the fighters. The British economy was fully stretched in 1943, getting a production line set up and quantity output was difficult even for something as relatively simple as the external tanks. First mission with a new size is one thing, adequate supply so all the fighters have access to them is another thing. From July 1943 and definitely after mid October 1943 the 8th Air Force stayed within the range of adequate fighter cover, operations in the period to around end February 1944 limited by the problems the P-38 and P-51 were having, plus there only being 2 P-38 and 1 P-51 groups operational end January, up to 2 and 3 by end February, so it meant staying mostly where the P-47 could go.

The Spitfire IX cannot go out to 400 miles without a major fuel tank upgrade, even the VIII needs more internal fuel. It is a false comparison to consider the Spitfire a long range fighter if the Mustang is present, it is medium range, like the P-47, if the mark VIII is used. What I do not have is the mission profile for the 8th Air Force combat range calculations, hence why the Spitfire ranges are nominal, until it can be compared with the actual profile the 8th Air Force was using.

In 1942 there are effectively no USAAF fighters in Britain and what drop tanks available were in the 30 to 60 imperial gallon range, assuming the Spitfires and P-47s could carry them. Sitting on enemy airbases requires numbers and range while France had plenty of fighter capable airfields. The 8th Air Force had a part operational fighter group in March 1943, up to 3 groups in April, 4 in August, 6 in September, by D-Day it had 15 groups. The 9th Air Force had 1 fighter group in November 1943, up to 18 groups by D-Day.

Put it another way for every 3 fighter sorties the USAAF could put up in April 1943 they could put up 33 in June 1944 and that is before the general expansion of fighter group strength. A 10 fold increase in offensive strength was far more than the Luftwaffe could handle even after concentrating forces in theatre.

Merlin Mustang time line, Rolls Royce began work on the two stage Merlin in 1940, expected late 1941.

N3297 the ex mark III prototype first flew with a Merlin 61 on 20 September 1941. Tests were so successful the call for production was being made before the type tests were done. On 12 November 1941 came the call to cancel all but Merlin 61 Spitfires. Merlin 60 production began in November 1941 according to Rolls Royce, 13 made that month and 13 more in December, 47 engines built by end February. Merlin 62 production from April 1942, Merlin 61 from May 1942.

Spitfire IX production from June 1942, mark VII from September, mark VIII from November.

The first Mustang arrived in Britain in October 1941, so airframe and engine are finally in the same area, 7 more in November, 24 in December. By 24 January the plan was to equip 10 Army Co-Operation squadrons.

Rolls Royce performance estimates, April 1942.
Air Vice Marshall Linnell informs the US that Merlin Mustangs a good idea, 9 June 1942.
3 Merlin Mustang conversions were ordered on 15 June 1942.
US/UK agreement for 1,200 Merlin Mustangs built January to October 1943, split half each, with the RAF releasing Packard Merlins from its order to the USAAF, 20 July 1942.

British order request for 120 engineless Mustang airframes a month for Britain and up to 200 a month for overseas theatres 27 August 1942. RAF talks about an order for 3,000 Merlin Mustangs, half for the RAF.

2 P-51 airframes officially accepted as XP-51B prototypes, August 1942, to await engines.
British request for bulk Merlin Mustangs 8 October 1942.
Mustang X first flight, 13 October 1942.
Churchill request to Harry Hopkins for Merlin Mustangs 16 October 1942, after 6 Mustang X test flights.
British request for 400 engineless Mustang airframes to be sent and converted to use Merlins. 5 November 1942.
XP-51B first flight 30 November 1942.

A Merlin XX engined Mustang would be one of the better 1942 fighters, but with the Merlin 61 so superior and in production why bother?

By 1943 the self defending bomber idea had an explicit in numbers added to it. The 8th Air Force considered 300 would be a big enough force to keep losses to acceptable levels, and it took until August and October for it to be abandoned. Until then there was little call for longer range fighters, nice to have but the priority was proving the bomber ideas. The everything that could fly mission on 24 December 1944 lost 12 bombers MIA and 23 written off, around half the 1943 long distance raids, but from 1,884 effective sorties. Even 30 lost from the 300 in 1943 would have been way too much, in 1945 thirty losses were well within acceptable levels. Also the early B-17F range as used by the 8th Air Force their radius of action was German border sort of distance and there was a certain make what you have work, the 3 fighter groups available April to August 1943 watched the bomber force grow from 5 to 16 groups, and that is with the B-24 groups on detached duty, end September the 6 fighter groups had 20 bomber groups to escort.

The allies firstly had to have the fighters in theatre, then a supply of tanks then enough pilot capable of being able to fly the distances, fight and return without many getting lost. Then use good tactics, like the 1944 escort ones As noted in Britain in 1943 but also in the US making changes in production came at a cost, both in terms of time to production and what had to be stopped to enable the new production.

As of mid 1943 only the Spitfire had shown to be able to match the best German fighter performance, and that required the latest versions after nearly a year where the German fighters were superior. Everyone was after the Spitfire, cutting production would be very unpopular.

To the Spitfire what if,

The allies have to decide the self defending day bomber is wrong earlier. The RAF have to decide the P-51 schedules are too optimistic both in time and numbers and increasing the Spitfire range is needed for bomber escort and general usefulness for the 1943 and 1944 operations. Furthermore the idea increasing efforts against Germany would pay off, the need for allied high performance fighters in the Mediterranean would drop as the Luftwaffe withdrew for example.

As part of mark XIV development, with a heavier thirster engine, specify a 30 to 40 gallon rear fuselage tank which the heavier engine should make an easier engineering task but also have the tank able to be used by the mark VIII, available about the time the mark XIV enters production in October 1943. Then during the Castle Bromwich mark V to IX change over, first IX in February 1943, last Vc in August, specify the Spitfire VIII internal fuel tankage, then later the rear fuselage tank, accepting the loss of production, using spare 60 series Merlins to convert more mark V to IX if necessary.

In early 1943, if the 90 gallon tank is available, the Spitfire can nominally match the August 1943 P-47 range, adding a 33 gallon tank nominally matches the February 1944 P-47 range.
 
As far as trying to orbit German fighter fields?
The bombers often flew dog leg courses to throw of German plotters and to both cause the Germans to take-off and burn fuel as the bombers turned away or cause mad scrambles as the bombers changed course and crossed behind what appeared to be a bypassed group of fighter fields. Dog legs were also used to avoid Flak guns.
They did all that because they didn't have fighters, it's the same argument as to why they didn't add more fuel in the BoB, they wanted less fuel so the Spit climbed faster, if it had more fuel it didn't need to, another 20G behind the seat has it at 20,000ft with a full main tank. 2nd TAF orbited fighter fields later in the war, once they got more fuel, don't know about you but I see a pattern emerging.
 
it's the same argument as to why they didn't add more fuel in the BoB, they wanted less fuel so the Spit climbed faster, if it had more fuel it didn't need to, another 20G behind the seat has it at 20,000ft with a full main tank.
2nd TAF orbited fighter fields later in the war, once they got more fuel,

I do see that the later fighters had more power=better power to weight ratio.

Hmmmm, I do see a pattern.

Climb isn't just about reaching 20,000ft quicker, it is about having better climb in combat at 20,000ft and above.
Less weight/more power means better turn performance. Not in absolute turn rate but in being able to maintain (or not loose as rapidly) height in a turn. It also means being able to get back in fight quicker after loosing altitude.

Now when should they have stuck the 20 gallon tanks in???
before or after they were scrabbling around in late June and into July refitting hundreds of fighters with constant speed props from the 2 pitch props.
Change was good for 2-3 minutes off the climb time to 20,000ft.
Might have added a bit to the endurance.

Adding weight when they were still using the crappy propellers may have been a cost they were unwilling to pay.

And not all constant speed props were equal. The Rotol offered 30-35 degrees of pitch change. The converted DeHavillands may have offered 20 degrees of pitch change.

Worry about being able to fight effectively with 85 gal of fuel for take off before you worry about adding more fuel to try to make up for crappy equipment.
 
In the 1930s both AAC/AAF and RAF heavy bomber doctrine argued that the bomber did not need escort. Further, in te case of the RAF, bomber mission profile was low (attack) to medium altitudes. Ditto Germany. Fighters, with exception of Bf 110 and P-38 were single engine interceptors with high rate of climb and speed attributes. The P-38 was designed as an interceptor - and at the time was a 'one off' requirement for AAC. The rest of AAC fleet were Pursuit with same basic mission as the RAF and LW programs. Note that XP-39 was desgned as S/E Interceptor also but relegated to Pursuit when Turbo stripped and easily fell into category of Spit and Bf 109. So, when WWII started, only the P-38 and to a degree the Bf 110, was a big airframe with easy capability to extend range.

Further, to the point of the Spitfire (and Bf 109) design features, the focus was climb and maneuverability - primarily home defense but also battlefied air superiority. Internal fuel capacity and engine were two major factors in juggling weight vs performance and neither Germany nor Britain envisioned the respective designs to require long range at the sacrifice of point defense performance.

Fuel fraction is probably the hardest to increase Post producton.

Therefore both were tethered to relative short combat radius because of lack of ease to dramatically increase internal fuel. Only the three major AAF fighters had the design attributes to stuff significant additional internal fuel to meet the requirements of Long Range escort. The key USN fighters had significant internal fuel but their mission was twofold - Carrier CAP and intermediate escort ranges for Dive Bomber and Torpedo Bomber carrier strike escort.

Fuel was the dominant consideration pointing to the larger US designs over European and Japan built fighters. The A6M was an exception but the compensating decision to keep airframe GW low and fuel fraction high was to strip excess (armor plate, self sealing tanks, etc) weight in the original design.

When mission expansion was desired, to include much larger tactical footprint, neither the Spitfire nor Bf 109 presented 'easy to find and design' space for extra tankage, nor solutions simple with respect to ease of incorporation - either for contiguous volume or ease of production changes.
 
I don't know what the deal started out as but it wound up as an initial contract for 9000 engines, 1/3 for the US and 2/3rds for the UK with peak production at 800 engines per month.
aside from that I have no argument with anything in you post.


Follow up contracts and changes to contracts get short shrift in most common accounts.
It took Packard until March of 1943 to complete the original contract but I don't know when the follow up contracts were signed or what the details were.
We do know that Packard built almost exactly 800 engines a month for the last 6 months of 1942.
The US may not have taken delivery of the full 3000 engines from the first contract.
Packard did build over 26,750 two speed engines by the end of 1944 and just under 18,600 two stage engines by the end of 1944.

By the summer of 1944 Packard was building over 2000 engines a month.

That is from the historical production perspective. Changing the numbers of engines built in 1942 requires more factory space, more machine tools and more employees.
In some cases expanding Packard production may mean something else may not get built, tank engines? Landing craft engines? a different aircraft engine?


perhaps somebody could have beaten some sense into a few officers in material command to allow drop tanks and the needed plumbing and pumps sooner.

What you can't make somebody do is make a significant change in the rate of climb of a well over 8000lb airplane that was using the single stage Merlin engine at the higher altitudes (over 20,000ft). That is more physics.
Once you specify a certain amount of weight for guns and ammo, and the desired fuel and protection and the structural strength and so one, you are going to wind up with a over 8,000lb airplane for US service. And if your available engine only offers 1100hp at the crank at 18,500ft in climb you don't have lot of options to change the climb performance.

see. http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/Power_required_available_P-51A_P-51B_P-47B.pdf

Yes this report was from late 1943 but engineers could have done (and probably did ) similar studies earlier. In fact teh P-47Ds were in production when this report was issued.
Please note that the power curves are for thrust HP and figure in the efficacy of the propellers.
Similar curves could have been done for higher altitudes.

The power you have to climb is the surplus power you have between the required power to actually fly at the desired speed and the max power of the engine.
In the case of the 3 planes shown the P-51A at 180mph needs about 250hp to fly and has 800hp available so it has 550hp thrust to climb with.
The P-51B needs 275hp to fly but has1150hp available so it has 875 hp thrust with.
The P-47B needs 435hp to fly ( a lot more drag and weight) but has 1600hp available and has 1375 hp thrust to climb with, however that horsepower needs to deal with almost 50% more weight.

engineers and engineering officers could make charts and predictions on performance based on charts/formulas like these.
A Merlin V-1650-1 is going to fall in between the P-51A and the P-51B in both needed power (only a small change) and the available power.
The problem for this question is that the available power at 20-25,000ft is not going to be enough to give the plane the performance it needs. And they could figure that out without actually building the plane.
Now as used in 1943-44 the B-17s and B-24s often did not fly at 25,000ft but flew 2-5,000ft lower but they didn't know that in 1941-42, they were planning on 25,000ft (or close) altitudes and in the US only the P-38 and P-47 offered the desired performance at altitude, until The two stage Merlin showed up.
Robert Neal lists the Packard production contracts placed by the US in this paper
 
Range equals time in the air.

Sure, but a shorter-range Spitfire is still more than capable of successfully fighting for air superiority within the limits of its endurance.

Long-range fighters were spurred by the need to escort the bombers in daylight.
 
Thanks - the 50-50 split was long held from some no loner remembered source.
The Packard Merlin program was first and foremost intended to produce Merlins for British bombers, in particular the Lancaster. The Lancaster was in fact the biggest single users of Packard Merlins although the P-51 was a close second. The US tagged along with the initial order by adding 3,000 for their own use but I don't think they had any intentions of continuing until the success of the P-51 Merlin conversion.
 
The figures being quoted were for a Sptfire LF.IX with a Merlin 66.

The Merlin 66 was considered a"low altitude" engine. The F.IX got the Merlin 63 which had a higher altitude rating. The difference seems to lie in the superchargers with different rotor sizes and gearing ratios.

Merlin 63 11.5/10.1 rotor dia; 6.39/8.03 gear ratios. combat power low gear @ altitude 1,710 @ 8,500ft; combat power high gear 1,510 @ 21,000ft
Merlin 66 12.0/10.1 rotor dia; 5.79/7.06 gear ratios. combat power low gear @ altitude 1,705 @ 5,750ft; combat power high gear 1,580 @ 16,000ft

V-1650-3 12.0/10.1 rotor dia; 6.39/8.095 gear ratios. combat power low gear @ altitude 1,530 @ 15,750ft; combat power high gear 1,300 @ 26,500ft
V-1650-7 12.0/10.1 rotor dia; 5.80/7.34 gear ratios. combat power low gear @ altitude 1,705 @ 5,100ft; combat power high gear 1,300 @ 26,500ft

The V-1650-7 is often described as nearly the equivalent of the Merlin 66
The Merlin 63 was superseded by the Merlin 70 which had the improved supercharger (much more than a simple enlargement. See my previous post in another thread) with the higher gear ratios. It was therefore the equivalent of the V-1650-3. This went into the Spitfire HF IX. The Merlin 63 was somewhat of an expedient to get 2 stage Merlins into service as soon as possible. Since Packard came into production a little later, they were able to incorporate the improved supercharger from the beginning of their 2 stage production.
The figures given for the V-1650-3 and -7 are puzzling as I don't see how the -7 can have the same performance at 26,500 feet as the -3 with the lower supercharger speed.

Its interesting to note that the USAAF chose to sacrifice high altitude performance for better performance at lower levels during the P-51 B/C production run.
 
The Merlin 63 was superseded by the Merlin 70 which had the improved supercharger (much more than a simple enlargement. See my previous post in another thread) with the higher gear ratios. It was therefore the equivalent of the V-1650-3. This went into the Spitfire HF IX. The Merlin 63 was somewhat of an expedient to get 2 stage Merlins into service as soon as possible. Since Packard came into production a little later, they were able to incorporate the improved supercharger from the beginning of their 2 stage production.
The figures given for the V-1650-3 and -7 are puzzling as I don't see how the -7 can have the same performance at 26,500 feet as the -3 with the lower supercharger speed.

Its interesting to note that the USAAF chose to sacrifice high altitude performance for better performance at lower levels during the P-51 B/C production run.
One important point that I neglected to mention, which Snowygroch would never forgive me for, is that the Merlin 63 had an SU carburetor whereas the other 4 used the Bendix Stromberg
 
The Spitfire IX cannot go out to 400 miles without a major fuel tank upgrade, even the VIII needs more internal fuel
That's been my argument from day dot, there's no reason after the MkIX came into service and helped turn the tide over France, Africa and the Med that they couldn't have started on immediately addressing the range issue
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You talk like you know more than the military planners who guided and won WWII. After D-Day, the airfields moved toward Germany and the Spit could play.

They got the performance out of the Spitfire that they wanted it to have. It was one of the best fighter-interceptors of the war. They left the long-range escort stuff to the U.S.A. and got on with their mission. The British were quite satisfied with it. Can't you be?
 
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The British were quite satisfied with it.

It's not that simple, really. Portal, C-in-C Air Staff was convinced the RAF did not need a long range escort a for its bombers, the issue arising during discussions about increasing Bomber Command's presence over enemy territory with the re-introduction of daylight bombing raids, this is before the US arrived in the UK. He was vociferous in his criticism of the concept, which was discussed in that context. He argued that a long range fighter could never match a short range fighter in performance which beggars belief in hindsight, but he held sway over operations. Churchill remarked that Portal's dogged refusal to examine the long range fighter escort for RAF bombers, "closed many doors..."

Quill, Supermarine test pilot mentions extending the range of the Spitfire it in his book and there was plenty of experimentation operationally that confirmed that with modification the Spitfire could become a long range escort fighter, but for Portal. From Spitfire, a test-pilot's story:

"In the meantime a 75-gallon tank was fitted in the fuselage of a Mk.IX (ML186) behind the pilot and we also fitted a bob-weight in the elevator circuit, so what with this and the large horn balance on the elevator we hoped for the best. However the best and most expeditious way to test this aeroplane was to fly it a good long way and see how everything worked out.

So I took off from High Post on Salisbury Plain with all tanks full, carrying a 45-gallon drop tank in addition, and set off at economical cruising boost and RPM in the general direction of Scotland. The weather was unsettled, so I decided to fly at a low altitude which, was not, of course a favourable height for optimum air miles per gallon; but I thought that if I could fly at a distance equivalent to John O'Groats and back non-stop at the rather unfavourable height, keeping to the east of the Pennines and the Grampians, it would be a useful demonstration.

The aeroplane was unstable to start with, but as soon as I had used up the rear fuselage fuel the handling was back to normal and I settled down to a long and enjoyable flight over a great variety of countryside from Salisbury Plain to the Moray Firth and back again, all below 1,000 ft. In distance, and not taking into account the various diversions for weather and terrain, it was roughly equivalent to flying from East Anglia to Berlin and back. It took five hours."
 
After the beating they took over France they may not have thought it worthwhile.
They took a beating because they MkV was outclassed by the FW190 and 109F, they did fit 30G slippers to extend range but the pilots instead use it to cruise at a higher speed, the MkIX re-addressed the balance
 
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Nuuumannn thanks for posting that, I'm not home so can't cite my books, did he have a drop tank also?.
 
They left the long-range escort stuff to the U.S.A. and got on with their mission.
Don't want a long range escort, I just want the Spit to have the fuel to range deeper than just the coast taking the fight to the Luftwaffe, once the MkIX and especially the LF MkIX came into service mid 1942 early '43 they had the plane that could go toe to toe with the best German aircraft, in doing so also supporting the US bomber operations as much as possible 6-9 months before their own LR fighters came on the scene.
 

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