drgondog
Major
'Easy to get into Germany'? How about returning after 20 min combat? Did the RAF publish Combat Radius charts similar to AAF?
Escort Fighter Performance Comparison
- Thread starter Zipper730
- Start date
Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
- Thread starter
- #122
Why?
So, it's still a possibility that's it's one of those historical myths.
From what I was told, the prototype/concept had 57 IG, then production models had 66 IG.
I'm curious if the range figures for escort for the Spitfire were based on S-weaving atop the formations or simply flying waves of fighters as long-ranged fighter-sweeps aimed at clearing out the way? Honestly, that seems the best profile for escorts.
In Korea, that seemed to be the norm since jet-fighters had such a speed-difference that it made other methods of escorting B-29's impractical.
drgondog
Major
Combat Radius tables (AAF) are straight line travel for taxi to takeoff to climb to cruise to fight to cruise to descend to loiter to land. The extra burn in lowered mpg relatve to straight line, for essing during close escort, was factored by Gp Operations as every escort profile was somewhat different - to very different.
Shortround6
Major General
It wasn't that hard to get a Spitfire "into" or even out of Germany. It was about 300 miles to the Ruhr.
The Problem was getting Spitfires into and out of Eastern Germany. Or not even Eastern Germany.
Granted the Raid on Stuttgart on Sept 6th 1943 took off from west of London but that trip was 525 miles until the northward dog leg/bomb run.
Again we can grant that the fighters, if there had been any that could go the distance, could fly from air fields close to the coast.
I am sure you you know the numbers much better than I do, it just bothers me when people try to short hand the escort problem (and you were doing a short reply to somebody else) and gloss over the fact that Germany was just over 300 miles wide for much of it's height and the skinny part (Southern Germany) was lower than Britain and need a longer flight path.
To escort to Eastern Germany needed roughly double the range of escorting to Western Germany.
drgondog
Major
Actually SR, the P-47 which had inherently more range than Mark IX could barely escort into Germany and return - with the 200gal ferry tank on a straight withdrawal support on July 28 - a little over 200+ miles to RV with no essing. First 8th AF fighter penetration into Germany. The 75 gal combat tank extended combat radius to about 225mi.
That was the point I was making about severe lack of Combat Radius for Spit IX. With the Spit IX, before P-47C conversion, the 4th FG was barely making St. Omer to Ostend on pure sweeps with no essing/escort - 100mi. AFAIK, zero Spitfires (save recon) made it to Germn border until RAF moved some to the Continent post D-Day.
Mike Williams
Senior Airman
- 572
- Oct 19, 2006
Fwiw, UK based Spitfire IXs and XIV could and did reach into Germany, for example:
Last edited:
drgondog
Major
I stand corrected Mike - I did forget about the 90 gal tanks in September 1944. That said, I was focused on 1943 operations. You did notice that the sorties were shallow penetrations and two hour flights? Dad had about 20 in 6.5-7.5 hr duration and one nearly 8 hr to Piryatin/Kiev. Nevertheless I learned something as most Germany penetrations for RAF (and IX AF mediums) were executed w/Mustangs
Last edited:
drgondog
Major
It is no wonder that your Godfather, along with so many others, couldn't hear well. I can't imagine spending that much time behind an unmuffled V12 with 1940 era hearing protection.
Been over this ad nauseum, the MkVII, VIII and IX could all have 500+ mile combat radius's allowing 15 minutes fuel for take off and climb plus 20 minutes combat, , both Jeffery Quill on behalf of Supermarine and the A&AEE on behave of the RAF did it in two separate tests, MkXIV's did 300 miles with just a 90G drop tank escorting bombers to the Ruhr.
It's mentioned numerous times, apparently there is a drawing in a book called Merlin PR Spitfires in detail, I'm going to chase that book up
With rear and leading edge tanks the MkVIII has 196G internal fuel with the 90G dropper, plenty of fuel to range further than they did on those missions.
Last edited:
How about this, you have MkV's and P47's flying out to 200 miles sweeping the sky, MkIX's warm up taxi and take off and climb to 20,000ft on the rear 33G upper tank burning it off to restore combat maneuvers, they are allowed 24G as per the flight books for that they go a bit farther on the extra fuel, they cruise out behind the short range escort at 20,000ft @ 220 miles per hour at most economic cruise on the 90G dropper, at around the 200mile mark which is the limit of the MkV/P47 the Spits speed up to 250miles per hour @ max weak mixture and continue to fly as far as the dropper allows which is around the 500 mile mark, once they get there they have 96G in the main tank, 42G in the rear tank and 26G in the leading edge tanks, or if they use Mareng bags 36G in the leading edge. Depending on time or model you can have 85G or 96G main tank, 75G or 66G rear tanks, 26G or 36G leading edge plus 90G dropper, the consumption is around 5.7 miles per gallon plus there was a 14.5G oil tank developed for the PR spits that was also used the the fighter versions. The Spitfires based in the UK could have made a serious contribution in regards to escorting bombing missions in the darker days of 1943 early '44.
Last edited:
33k in the air
Staff Sergeant
- 1,354
- Jan 31, 2021
One little problem: that altitude is not high enough. 25,000 feet would be the minimum in order to be a few thousand feet above the bomber formation.
Well fly at 25,000ft, problem solved.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
And are you going to get the range (and speed) required on "a weak mixture" at 25,000?"
33k in the air
Staff Sergeant
- 1,354
- Jan 31, 2021
How much more fuel is expended in climbing to 25,000 feet compared to 20,000 feet? Also, does the calculation of radius include the distance covered in the climb? It's probably not a good idea to be climbing over enemy territory.
It's late 1942 early '43 how many B17 crews would pass on having MkIX's flying escort because they could only go 450 miles instead of 500 running a richer mixture?, remember they were bolting unpressurised ferry tanks under P47's trying to get every last mile out of them at that time.
Lets find problems to stop it from working instead of solutions meaning it can. You have 197G internal fuel, 90G external and 5.7 miles to the gallon, nothing else in your fighter inventory has that at the time, make it work.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
I really don't have a dog in the fight but until you do some "exact" calculations, you're just guessing this would work.
