F-22 Info

[FLYBOYJ]

"For radar purposes, the F-22 is about the size of a steel marble. The F-35 comes out as a steel golf ball."

"The air force also points out that their simulations (which are classified, so it's difficult for anyone check their accuracy) indicate the an F-22 would destroy 30 Su-27/MiG-29 type aircraft for getting destroyed. But the F-35 would only have a 3:1 ratio, while the F-15 and F-16 would only have a 1:1 ratio (there are a lot of F-15 and F-16 pilots who would dispute this)."

Warplanes: F-22 Secrets Revealed

 

[SoD Stitch]

Well, if Red Flag is any indication, that sounds about right; the last two times the F-22 has gone up against "red" forces out in Nevada, they've come out of the excercises with a kill ratio of about 50:1, and this is against highly-trained Aggressor red force pilots who should know what to expect.

Also, the article states that the "unclassified" range of the Raptor's AESA radar is 210 miles, but an article in the Smithsonian Air Space Magazine from a couple of years ago quoted one pilot as saying that he has "seen targets beyond 320 miles." I find that very easy to believe.

Go here for the full Smithsonian article.

 

[Matt308]

Privately, it has been mentioned that the F-22 desired signal from some angles was -40dBsm, whereas the F-35 is -30dBsm. Supercruise is Mach 1.78, rather than the unofficial Mach 1.5. Now think about that. Almost Mach 2 without burners!

The radar detection ranges that I have read may be confused with the AESA ability to engage in electronic attack. Figures that I have seen indicate that F-22 AESA doubles detection ranges, but that ability to engage electronic attack is the sum of the AESA plus the enemy radar range. Now your likely talking about 300km+.

Here's another interesting note. The speed of pilot training is directly affected by F-22 capabilties. Lockheed noted that the first 4 first lieutenant F-22 pilots - with NO experience in another operational fighter type - have granduated. In addition 13 pilots, just out of advanced jet training, have been selected for the F-22. Apparently Lockheed has noted a significant increase in ability of the 4 "newbies" to acclimate to the F-22 and operationally improvise to exploit the unique F-22 capabilities. Obvisously, having to "unlearn" certain trained habits ingrained from other platform limitations is necessary to make the most out of the Raptor. Apparently this was most noted in the net-centric ops capabilities of the F-22 sensors and comm equipment.

Here's a quote from Pravda in a Jan 26 article:

"Konstantin Sivkov, the vice president of the Academy for Geopolitical Sciences, believes that the F-22 fighter jets pose a great danger to any modern missile defense system. "This aircraft has a wide range of opportunities to defeat the system. Its stealth element makes it inconspicuous for anti-aircraft systems. One has to add the enormous speed, which the aircraft develops, its maneuverability and its airborne equipment. All of that makes it a very powerful and dangerous aircraft," he said. "

 

[Glider]

Nice to see Pravda get something right for a change.

 

[fly boy]

well there goes russin aircraft if they start a war

 

[Matt308]

Nice to see Pravda get something right for a change.

Yeah well what I didn't quote was aRussian military leader saying it was a PoS. Din't think it was worth quoting.

 

[tomo pauk]

F-22 is really an uberflieger, a pinnacle of dealing against quantity by quality when it comes down to planes.

I was wondering how the high power radar fits in a stealth plane; yes, it could be shut down, but anyway?

 

[SoD Stitch]

F-22 is really an uberflieger, a pinnacle of dealing against quantity by quality when it comes down to planes.

I was wondering how the high power radar fits in a stealth plane; yes, it could be shut down, but anyway?

The AESA radar in the F-22 has no moving parts like most previous radar sets (hence the "ES" part of AESA), and the actual planar array of the radar is tilted backwards in the nose at about 25 degrees to deflect incoming signals up and away from the source. It's not completely stealthy, of course, but it's close.

 

[Matt308]

And the F-15 has a more powerful AESA.

But let's be realistic. A single F-22 with no other support WILL NOT maintain a 30:1 kill ratio against 3rd or 4th gen aircraft. But then again, nobody has said that either.

Rather one must understand that the F-22 is a force multiplier extraordinaire. The F-22 is NOT the primary killer during an engagement. Rather, the F-22 is a mini-AWACS that allows it net-centric capabilities to couple with its airframe/kinematic/weapons loads to direct the order of battle.

In a prime engagement of an A-to-A battle the F-22 introduces electronic attack spoiling enemy force C3I, then destroys/decoys the enemy leading/control elements, eliminates forward forces, and then directs other air assets in target acquisition. All this is done under stealth.

Modern air battles are not kinematics, missiles and cannon. Those days are gone, unless you are still a GCI centric airforce.

 

[Bill G.]

"Yeah well what I didn't quote was aRussian military leader saying it was a PoS. Din't think it was worth quoting." Matt308

Matt, I think the Russian was using it to refer to the Russian Air Force when compared to the F-22. He was just using a "Politically Correct" way of saying it.

Bill G.

 

[Matt308]

Actually the other Pravda Russian AF source quote said the F-22 was easily tracked and capable of being shot down. It was a dismissive comment.

 

[tomo pauk]

The AESA radar in the F-22 has no moving parts like most previous radar sets (hence the "ES" part of AESA), and the actual planar array of the radar is tilted backwards in the nose at about 25 degrees to deflect incoming signals up and away from the source. It's not completely stealthy, of course, but it's close.

Yes, I know that the radar antenna of the F-22 is inclined down, but its the kilowatts of radiated energy from the antenna that undo the stealth.

 

[tomo pauk]

And the F-15 has a more powerful AESA.

But let's be realistic. A single F-22 with no other support WILL NOT maintain a 30:1 kill ratio against 3rd or 4th gen aircraft. But then again, nobody has said that either.

Rather one must understand that the F-22 is a force multiplier extraordinaire. The F-22 is NOT the primary killer during an engagement. Rather, the F-22 is a mini-AWACS that allows it net-centric capabilities to couple with its airframe/kinematic/weapons loads to direct the order of battle.

In a prime engagement of an A-to-A battle the F-22 introduces electronic attack spoiling enemy force C3I, then destroys/decoys the enemy leading/control elements, eliminates forward forces, and then directs other air assets in target acquisition. All this is done under stealth.

Modern air battles are not kinematics, missiles and cannon. Those days are gone, unless you are still a GCI centric airforce.

Hi, Matt,
How wise it would be to use stealth plane for active electronic warfare? It's news for me that F-22 would do SEAD/DEAD job as good as dedicated platforms.

 

[Matt308]

Well then consider your self schooled.

 

[SoD Stitch]

Yes, I know that the radar antenna of the F-22 is inclined down, but its the kilowatts of radiated energy from the antenna that undo the stealth.

With a flight of F-22's, only ONE a/c in the flight needs to be radiating, and that a/c could easily be 20 or 30 miles away from the other a/c in it's flight; with the F-22's netcentric abilities, it INSTANTLY relays it's targeting information to the other 3 a/c in it's flight WHICH ARE NOT RADIATING. So, for all intents and purposes, you've got one F-22 acting (as Matt said) as a mini AWACS (the "hunter"), and the other three a/c in the flight (which could be much closer to the target) acting as the "killers". The enemy flight wouldn't even know there are more F-22's in the neighborhood (and much closer) until the terminal homing phase radar of the AIM-120D's trigger their RWR's, by which time it's too late.

 

[Colin1]

With a flight of F-22's, only ONE a/c in the flight needs to be radiating, and that a/c could easily be 20 or 30 miles away from the other a/c in it's flight; with the F-22's netcentric abilities, it INSTANTLY relays it's targeting information to the other 3 a/c in it's flight WHICH ARE NOT RADIATING. So, for all intents and purposes, you've got one F-22 acting (as Matt said) as a mini AWACS (the "hunter"), and the other three a/c in the flight (which could be much closer to the target) acting as the "killers". The enemy flight wouldn't even know there are more F-22's in the neighborhood (and much closer) until the terminal homing phase radar of the AIM-120D's trigger their RWR's, by which time it's too late.

Furthermore
DF isn't that easy, in fact, it's downright difficult. For ground-based platforms to get a fix on a ground-based station requires a minimum of three seekers (and that really is a bare minimum, five would be a more acceptable minimum) and even then if things are looking up they've only triangulated him - believe me, pinpointing just doesn't happen.
Certainly in the case of ground-based EW, you can hide by either whispering or shouting really loud; by the latter I mean stick your radiator on top of a hill in among alot of hills and just bang out the kilowatts on an omni. This not only lights up the footprint area, it saturates it; throw in the reflections and multipaths - very difficult to pin anything down for even seasoned DF crews.
Up in the air, the target is not only practically invisible to radar, he's moving at around 600kts; throw in reflections and multi-paths from the a/c's own transmission and I don't see how they'd lock him down, I'd say the best they could hope to achieve is to know he's there and they'd probably have figured that out anyway.

 

[Matt308]

Now compound that difficult equation with an airborne platform that supercruises at Mach 1.8, that's max speed for most other 4th gen fighters in full afterburner.

But you gents are missing the real point of the F-22 capability besides its inherenet netcentric capabilities. The F-22 elecotronic attack capabiilities are more in alignment with the those larger platforms that not only allow radar/comm jamming, but also spoofing to fool enemy systems into accepting bogus target information or blue asset position/sitation awareness.

 

[tomo pauk]

Thanks, the replies do throw a lot of light at F-22's capabilities.

 

[Gnomey]

Yeah they do. It has been an interesting read, thanks guys.

She really is a fantastic aircraft.