F-35 Lightning II completes first flight

[Matt308]

You guys are focusing ENTIRELY to much upon the physical capabilities. The F-22's lethality is less connected to its flight performance and MUCH more connected to its stealth, weapon systems, guidance capability, detection capability and comm ability to share nav position state, intention, ability, targets and surveillance. This similar capability is inherent in the F-35. And for $8m for F-35, you bet I'd want it. With F-22 you got the best of both worlds.

I don't knock the Typhoon, but it is not the generation of either US aircraft. But I hope later Tranches (II and III) bring it up to speed.

 

[mkloby]

Their is little doubt that its F22 before the Typhoon but when you consider how few F22's are likely to be built, the F35 vs Typhoon is likely to be the important matchup.
In a BVR scenario the F22 will I believe be unmatched for quite a time, the question is though, how often do the rules of engagement allow BVR. I do not know but I would be suprised if this was common.

I believe the USAF will still be acquiring upwards of 200+ F-22s.

 

[Glider]

You guys are focusing ENTIRELY to much upon the physical capabilities. The F-22's lethality is less connected to its flight performance and MUCH more connected to its stealth, weapon systems, guidance capability, detection capability and comm ability to share nav position state, intention, ability, targets and surveillance. This similar capability is inherent in the F-35. And for $8m for F-35, you bet I'd want it. With F-22 you got the best of both worlds.

I don't knock the Typhoon, but it is not the generation of either US aircraft. But I hope later Tranches (II and III) bring it up to speed.

Not quite and that is why I brought up the issue of BVR rules in the terms of engagement. Where BVR is allowed then the F22 is head and shoulders above the rest.
Earlier in the thread I mentioned that in excercises the F22 had scored 144 kills to zero, but its worth mentioning that 140 of those were in a BVR situation.

The Typhoon also has the weapon systems, guidance capability, detection capability and comm ability to share nav position state, intention, ability, targets and surveillance which will even things up to some degree. Indeed the Grippen has impressive abilities in this area so it isn't a new technology for Europe.

Time will tell as to how well the Typhoon and F35 square off against each other, because right now we don't know.

Personally I hope that the Typhoon is an advance over the F35 as the UK are buying both. If the Typhoon isn't an improvement then we have wasted a shedload of money on infrastructure costs alone to cater for both types of aircraft.

 

[Matt308]

Interesting to read about those Alaska exercises that you are quoting the 144 kills from. Further reading indicates that the F-22s were assuming a top cover role that allowed them to guide and direct firing of F-15s, F-16s and F-18s against opposing forces. F-22 capabilities would allow information exchange to ensure that lock-ons were not overlapping to maximize ordinance on aircraft that could not even see the threat. The AESA radar, F-22 stealth, and performance is supposedly allowing a 150mi greater engagement range over F-15s and simulated opposition. The supercruise and high altitude performance allowed F-22s to freely roam at 65,000ft at mach 1.6 for BVR and to engage other targets at will by nosing over, accelerating and making use of IR missiles. Two kills were acquire in this manner and a third with guns. While the thrust to weight ratio is only about 1 versus 1.2 for F-15, Eagle drivers were complimenting the F-22 for its thrust vectoring ability and acceleration in full-burner. They further noted that F-22 maneuvering and performance is such that existing counter maneuvers need to be rethought to account for the F-22 unique performance. The conclusion being that while the F-22 was not developed with close in dogfighting capabilities as its primary strength, it is still quite a formidable foe...if you survive the BVR. As I recall. There was only 16 F-22s used in the whole exercise of which only 8 were engaged at any one time.

One of the most telling comments of those who witnessed the engagements was the "eery silence" of the F-22 attacks and coordation with other air assets. All this coordination and target parameter exchange occurring using machine-to-machine data link.

144 kills. I'd say that's not too bad.

 

[Glider]

Thaks for the additional info its a lot more detailed than I had. There is no doubt that with the F22 and the F35, the USA have worthy replacements for the F15/F16 combination, that has served it so well over the last 25-30 years.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I dont think the US has that much of an adversary with the F-22 and F-35.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

it's an interesting point in the BVR discussion, only in a massive WWIII situation would such attacks be allowed, the politics these days would prevent BVR shooting through fear of what the press will say if it goes wrong, they have the power to topple governments............

 

[mkloby]

it's an interesting point in the BVR discussion, only in a massive WWIII situation would such attacks be allowed, the politics these days would prevent BVR shooting through fear of what the press will say if it goes wrong, they have the power to topple governments............

I don't understand why you think that. If any nation sends up A/C against US air assets, I see zero hesitation in taking them out before they can engage. You don't even need high speed F-35s or 22's to do that. Even Hornets can link up w/ E-2s or AWACS and "see" targets way beyond the capabilities of their own radar systems.

 

[Matt308]

Both are true, but somewhat different issues.

If you think WWII then "blips" on radar don't offer any clue as to identification of said aircraft. Today radar is MUCH more sophisticated and offers MUCH higher resolution than that. Further electromagnetic emmissions are used to help classify targets. So intelligence gathering is magnitudes different that what you might imagine from a WWII battlespace.

Finally, the analogy to AWACS is spot on. But F-22s can accomplish much of this capability further into the battlespace and without risking an AWACS assets. Certainly AWACS has more computing power, but cannot project itself into the melee.

Battlespace management and networking information is key to future air combat.

 

[mkloby]

Battlespace management and networking information is key to future air combat.

Exactly - Linking is still highly classified.

 

[Matt308]

Yep.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

come on matt, being an Electrical Engineer decoding the links should be a walk in the park

btw, how is that trying to crack the DVD algorithms project going?

solved world hunger yet?

 

[Matt308]

Only British algorithms.

Are you mocking me, Lanc?

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

you're being very secretive that's all, it's almost as if you're somehow involved in these very secretive data links

 

[Matt308]

 

[Matt308]

Its all published info Lanc.

 

[Glider]

I understand that Isreal are having problems with the F35. Nothing to do with the aircraft but to do with the control the US are insisting they have on any changes to the aircraft. This is the same argument that the UK had with the USA before they signed the final contracts.

The US will not realease the code that would enable the countries who buy the F35 to integrate any changes to the aircraft. Any none US equipment has to be given to the US who will then do the integration work. The UK got an exception to this in view of the roll that it had in the development and the money put forward to the develoment.

Isreal want to install their own ECM equipment into the F35 but the US will not realease the code. Israels position is simple, its ECM equipment has to be effective against US and USSR radar equipment and will not give it to the US as its secrets will be compromised. The US will not give the code for the same reason as their secrets are likely to leak.
An interesting situation as some Arab states are starting to purchase equipment that is at least as good as the F15 putting their air superiority at risk.

How this will be resolved I don't know. Israel needs better aircraft and the only real alternative is the Typhoon but I cannot see the USA letting that happen with all the support they give Israel in so many different ways. Best guess, is that Israel hand over a simplified ECM package that they can upgrade in Israel once its back home.

 

[Matt308]

Isreal is buying the F-35. I think the issue is moot at this point.

Good find, Glider. This thread made me reminisce about times long ago. You resurrected an old one.

 

[Glider]

Right now both sides are sticking their toes in but they need something so its something to watch